Can Sam without a soul even die?

[xrayvision]

Now before everyone jumps on me for asking this question to say that Sam's body can still die from biological trauma, fatal wounds, dismemberment, etc., I want to point out something.

In the Supernatural universe, for something to die, it must be collected/reaped by a reaper. In the episode In My Time of Dying, Dean's soul had left his body as he was close to death. When he spoke to Tessa the reaper, she told him that he was not going to get back into his body.

In season 4's Death Takes a Holiday, we saw that when people's bodies received what would be fatal injuries, they still lived because the reaper wasn't there to collect their souls & was taken hostage by Alistair.

Sam's situation right now is unlike Dean's was in In My Time of Dying. Dean in that episode had a soul that was temporarily outside his body. He only woke from his coma & near-death state after John made a deal with Azazel & possessed Tessa to allow Dean's soul back into his body. But something else was done with Sam. Sam is somehow able to function without a soul.

So going back to the example of Death Takes a Holiday, if things would be consistent if Sam were to sustain mortal injuries, he shouldn't be visited by a reaper because there is nothing to reap. Reapers don't reap bodies, but souls. Therefore, Sam is unreapable. And since in Supernatural the death process includes the act of one's soul being reaped, Sam as a soulless body should not be able to die. Perhaps if he was decapitated, but not by gunshot or the usual standards. This would make Sam like a horror movie villain like Michael Myers (I believe Halloween 6 revealed that the Thorn cult performed a ritual on him to remove his soul and make him unkillable).

I think this is why the character in the promo for the 7th episode called Sam an ultimate weapon. But of course Sam doesn't know it yet, which is why he's being careful to protect himself from getting killed (even though he can't be killed--at least not without decapitation or something else).

I'll go further & say that Sam's body now may be totally unkillable--by any means. If his head were to be cut off, his body may just put itself back together since there is nothing to reap. Whoever resurrected his body without his soul could have put a spell, possibly Enochian or otherwise, that would regenerate Sam's body if it were to be destroyed. Whether this happens to be the case or not, I definitely think Sam has a degree of invulnerability now & doesn't know it yet.

[Anno_Domini]

I said the same thing in the "Appointment in Samarra" thread.

Dean is the one who becomes injured and on the brink of death when Tessa tries to take him to the afterlife, and it just wouldn't have worked with Sam. Sure, he can get beat up, as we've seen, but I'm not convinced he can move on into the afterlife without a soul. Or, perhaps he can die, but end up in purgatory, but that's IF the SPN universe has a purgatory. But, maybe in the realm of purgatory, it's just the spiritual/astral-like state as seen in "Death Takes A Holiday"; so Sam could, if he did die, stay in a certain place as that one kid.

[xrayvision]

I said the same thing in the "Appointment in Samarra" thread.

Dean is the one who becomes injured and on the brink of death when Tessa tries to take him to the afterlife, and it just wouldn't have worked with Sam. Sure, he can get beat up, as we've seen, but I'm not convinced he can move on into the afterlife without a soul. Or, perhaps he can die, but end up in purgatory, but that's IF the SPN universe has a purgatory. But, maybe in the realm of purgatory, it's just the spiritual/astral-like state as seen in "Death Takes A Holiday"; so Sam could, if he did die, stay in a certain place as that one kid.

Then again, that astral-like state was a spiritual state since Sam & Dean's bodies with still in the real world on their respective beds with Pamela. I'm not sure there's a similar state for physical bodies since they were meant to have souls. Unless Sam would end up in the same place that monsters like wendigos, and other soulless creatures would end up when they die.

[Anno_Domini]

I think all monsters have souls though; Wendigoes may still have a soul, albeit a twisted and evil one, but I'm sure their soul doesn't die once the man starts to become a cannibal and then becomes the monster.

I think Sam's physical body could indeed perish, but perhaps instead of moving on, perhaps he'll just be nothing as the soul/spirit is the presence that'll move on. But, there is a slight notion that he could become an evil spirit as well as there isn't any solid notification that an evil presence like a poltergeist has a soul.

[xrayvision]

I think all monsters have souls though; Wendigoes may still have a soul, albeit a twisted and evil one, but I'm sure their soul doesn't die once the man starts to become a cannibal and then becomes the monster.

I think Sam's physical body could indeed perish, but perhaps instead of moving on, perhaps he'll just be nothing as the soul/spirit is the presence that'll move on. But, there is a slight notion that he could become an evil spirit as well as there isn't any solid notification that an evil presence like a poltergeist has a soul.

I guess we'll have to see. But I wouldn't be surprised if we see a future scene where Sam gets shot somewhere that would normally be a mortal injury & Dean freaks out that Sam is still alive. This show is known for doing that, especially with Sam and the side effects that come with the stuff that happened with him---like his original psychic power of seeing people in his dreams/visions or the side effects of drinking demon blood (his eyes turning black or killing demons with the charge he gets out of drinking the blood). Dean has been known of having freaked out reactions to such things in the past. Now with him not having a soul, I'm 100% positive there will be at least 1 side effect that Dean (and Sam) will find out about if not more than 1. All I can see are things related to Sam's condition that will make it harder for Dean to accept his brother in his current state. Ultimately, I think he will accept Sam like he seemed to accept Sam using his abilities in My Bloody Valentine (one of my favorite episodes) when he saw that Sam was in control despite what Famine was doing, but was still devastated to see his brother while he had to detox again.

Another thing I think is that whatever advantages Sam will get from his current state--such as if it does turn out that he can't be killed in the usual ways now that his soul is missing--I think he will pay a price for it. A painful price. The price may be something like being able to feel the pain his soul is going through at any time if there is some connection between him & his soul, which I also believe there is. Such pain could be the device that in the end draws him to do anything to get his soul back, including breaking open the part of hell that Michael & Lucifer (and possibly his soul) are in.

Whoever did this to Sam knew what they were doing. I hope they don't resolve it too soon because this is one very interesting storyline.

[Anno_Domini]

I always had the idea of Death dying by the hands of Crowley(by using the scythe) since he's the proclaimed new King of Hell and, to bring in your theory, have Crowley try to reap Sam, but him not knowing about Sam not having a soul, but the season leaves off as it should be the finale to have us wondering if Sam can die without a soul.

[Dexter]

I haven't rewatched Season 4 in over a year but from what I remember, the people in "Death Takes a Holiday" didn't bleed from their wounds, unlike Sam, who was bleeding after Dean punched him out.

I may be wrong here, but I think the difference between the people in "Death Takes a Holiday" and Sam is that the process of reaping their souls were paused while Sam's soul was stolen.

[xrayvision]

I always had the idea of Death dying by the hands of Crowley(by using the scythe) since he's the proclaimed new King of Hell and, to bring in your theory, have Crowley try to reap Sam, but him not knowing about Sam not having a soul, but the season leaves off as it should be the finale to have us wondering if Sam can die without a soul.

That would be very cool. The only thing is I think Death is too powerful for Crowley to kill. And if he were killed, would it affect the order among the reapers? Would they even continue to reap souls once Death dies, since he kind of sets the rules & they work for him? I would love to see that sickle make it into the plot again.

[Anno_Domini]

I haven't rewatched Season 4 in over a year but from what I remember, the people in "Death Takes a Holiday" didn't bleed from their wounds, unlike Sam, who was bleeding after Dean punched him out.

I may be wrong here, but I think the difference between the people in "Death Takes a Holiday" and Sam is that the process of reaping their souls were paused while Sam's soul was stolen.

You are right, while the reapers were in trouble, no one bled out during that time. Even Pamela, after getting stabbed by a demon, didn't bleed until Tessa was saved. One thing with that episode I really appreciated and it was the attention of detail such as, with Pamela getting stabbed, they remembered to show no blood which, a lot of shows out there would have made a little mistake such as that. But, they still had souls in them, but they couldn't die. Sam on the other hand, I think he just can't die period. He can bleed, yes, but without a soul, I doubt he can move on.

That would be very cool. The only thing is I think Death is too powerful for Crowley to kill. And if he were killed, would it affect the order among the reapers? Would they even continue to reap souls once Death dies, since he kind of sets the rules & they work for him? I would love to see that sickle make it into the plot again.

Well of course Death is more powerful than Crowley, but Death could easily misplace his scythe once more and I bet one "reap" from the weapon could kill the Horseman. Imagine how much more powerful Crowley could become after doing such a feat.

And, I think the reapers would still work, but I believe they will change from black suits to white and God will have to take control over them, or Crowley could become the newest reaper leader and do some sick things with his new "army".

[xrayvision]

The death of Death would be a monumental moment on the show if it happens. I'm just not sure I'd like Crowley to be the one to do it. I'd probably like it more if Michael does it if he goes totally out of his previous character (given he & Lucifer get out of hell) and is no longer the obedient son archangel he once was & joins Lucifer.

I'm hoping is that in Supernatural, God's master plan will be uniting all the races & species of living things (humans, demons, vampires, djinns, etc) to save the world from Lucifer & Michael because that would be for me the biggest payoff & explanation as to why He never got rid of the evil himself & stopped Lucifer. If that happens, then the Winchesters can finally retire at the end of the series & maybe go on to have normal lives. And part of such a plot would be Michael disposing of one of the biggest threats to him & his brother---Death. Or if Crowley like you suggest is the one to kill Death, then he should remain on the Winchesters' side because that scythe is one weapon that not Lucifer or Michael would be immune to.

[Anno_Domini]

I can't say I agree with that theory, just because of the fact that evil exists for a purpose which is to keep that balance of good and evil at bay. I think Lucifer will exist until the true end times, the one that God will WANT to happen and then that'll truly disolve all evil in the end(and when Death will reap God, who I am thinking they are brothers, hence why I bring the fact of God could take over Death's "job". It adds more meaning to Supernatural's whole family motto, as well as in this new ending of Supernatural, Sam could end up having to kill Dean as a reversal of roles since Dean is still seen as the light(God) and Sam is seen as the dark(Death), and with Death having said he will reap God, it may just be infact a foreshadow of how Supernatural could end this time around).

With the Alphas, that still bugs me on who would want a resurrected Samuel Campbell to capture them, but I am leaning on how there may be a monster-only Apocalypse, but I just don't know who would be doing all of this as the Alpha vampire wants an army and it only makes sense to have an Apocalypse-like war in the making.

But, with the whole Crowley killing Death scenerio, I think that should be for the latter of season seven, imo. The Alpha storyline could last a season, but I can't see it lasting two seasons. I think the seventh, or the latter of it, will be about Crowley wanting to accomplish something huge as the demons have stopped playing a major part ever since Lucifer was defeated, so he reaps Death, which will finally bring God into the main stage. Crowley starts to control the weather and possibly all of the creatures(as they could keep the "monsters acting strange" storyline this way) and Sam and Dean has to find Crowley before Crowley finds God as Crowley has a chance to kill God since he now owns the scythe and it'll bring the demons back into the main fold.

I still think Lucifer and Michael will be stuck in the cage for the rest of the series, but it wouldn't hurt for us to know what's going on down there. Lucifer and Michael are still fighting, or they have teamed up and are awaiting for the Apocalypse to happen, in which if that happens, there will be a new archangel to do battle and I believe Castiel will become that archangel, OR, and this is something I've been leaning to, Lucifer and Michael has formed into one mega-super-deformed archangel by the name of Abaddon and we only see glimpses or hear hints of that new creation but we never see the fruition of that storyline just because I think it'll be another 1,000 years until a new Apocalypse will happen, as it could play in hand with how the Bible mentioned Lucifer, after Armageddon, will be trapped in Hell for another 1,000 years.

But, as I said in the beginning, for some reason, I see Dean dying and having to die by the hands of Sam, who, after I believe there will be no more use for hunters, Sam will finally try to live that life he once had in the beginning of the series and will make Supernatural go full circle.

[xrayvision]

I think God being reaped by anything in Supernatural would be too offensive & just wouldn't make sense if He created everything. I think Death was being cocky, because if he can be controlled by Lucifer from what I guess was that ritual he performed in Abandon All Hope whereas God can't be controlled by anyone, knows what the future holds, and is the one who made the master plan (where He would know about His own death & wouldn't let that happen), then that to me tells me that God is much more powerful than Death, who was only released after the Apocalypse, whereas God can go wherever he wants & always had the choice to do so.

I could see God taking over for Death as far as being the leader of the reapers but not doing any reaping Himself since he is a creator.

But I think this show could easily go through another 3 seasons counting this one, meaning season 8 would be the last. It would be great as long as they keep the plots fresh.

[Anno_Domini]

I don't think God will ever die within the series either, but the chase of someone becoming close to killing God is something I could see, for at least the last season of Supernatural and I too think SPN could go to eight seasons, and to end in 2014(in SPN's timeframe) would be pretty sweet as 2014 is where Zachariah sent Dean.

And I don't think Death really ever reaps someone, I think the reapers are the ones responsible and Death just overlooks what's happening, and his main job is being a Horseman.

[quikman]

I always assumed that 'Death' was the actual counterpart to God as opposed to Lucifer. 'Death' the entity represents the end of things, God is the opposite, representing the creation and beginning of things. God creates souls, or perhaps they are more like tiny fragments of its being, they are transient and exist through different states of being, life and afterlife. The Reapers are the ones that oversee the transfer of the soul from one state to the next. Any being (Death) that claims not to know which is older, itself or God or one that will eventually 'reap God', being thwarted by something as simple as a demon interfering with its agent seems unlikely. This could simply be an overstatement of his own power. 'Death' the entity is not involved in the transfer between states, those we see killed by Death might actually be annihilated as opposed to moving on to the afterlife. The scythe is a manifestation of 'the end of existence' thus its ability to 'kill' anything. So God can't actually 'end' evil, he can resurrect people, build a box around Lucifer etc...

Did anyone seriously not see the whole 'Sam came back without a soul' thing coming?

More to the point however is power-relations and relative power in the series:

It is implied at the end of Season 5 that Cas has been resurrected in a juiced up fashion, something akin to an arch-angel. This would seem to be supported by his apparent leadership of one of the factions of the civil war in heaven, ie. he is one of heavens big guns now. This would be contradicted by his seeming inferiority to Raphael in their most recent encounter in the episode with the staff of Moses. If Cas is not as strong as an arch-angel then why isn't one of the other four in charge of the faction? If they have all united under Raphael then why has Cas' side not simply been rolled in the conflict?

Since Cas' says it would take a being of immense power to remove a soul from Lucifer's cage, more than it takes to remove one from hell, we can assume it is beyond his power. If he is arch-angel level powerful then Crowley as 'King of Hell' is more powerful than an arch-angel, in fact if he can reach in and out of the cage, it could be claimed that he is more powerful than Lucifer, who apparently can't get out.

Since the Cage is harder to get into than Hell, and Heaven had to lay siege to the gates of hell in order to pull Dean out. If an arch-angel had the power to pull a soul out of the cage, then Michael could have strolled in and busted out Dean any time he liked. He didn't, so one could assume he was restrained for some reason.

The point of all this is, if being 'King of Hell' is so wonderful, why wasn't this power added to Lucifer's as he would have been the presumptive King of Hell following his release. Put another way, why wasn't Azazel or Lilith rocking that kind of mojo?*

'King of Hell' apparently trumps arch-angel according to Crowley's explanation, something I don't buy and can't reconcile with earlier seasons. I would offer two different explanations:

1. Crowley is full of crap. He did not bring Sam back but he did bring back Samuel (Managed to sneak him out of heaven in the chaos, if he was in heaven), knowing that he could use Samuel to influence them in the quest for purgatory. This would seem to be in keeping with the nature of demons and Crowley, manipulating what can't be gained through power.

2. Crowley somehow managed to get one of them half-demon half-human anti-Christ kids under his thumb and is therefore able to use their powers to do these things. This would be in keeping with the relative power levels from previous seasons "lay waste to the forces of heaven with a single word" yada yada yada.

Might just be me but I'm having trouble with the logic of power relations given the current story, I think these two theories sorta bring it all together a bit. And yes... this is my first post.

*Obvious reason for this last point is that as the series progresses the necessity to increase the power of the bad guys requires an ever increasing power scale, making early season to late season power comparisons an exercise in futility.

[Anno_Domini]

Lucifer isn't really God's counterpart in the first place, Lucifer is Michael's counterpart, and even more so in Supernatural's universe.