Discussion - The Clark/ Ollie bar scene

[austezie]

Anyone agree?


I do

[pharaoh8]

i do too. and you know what as much as i love clark he really needed to hear that. so now all he has to do is find the crystal, re-instate the fortress and begin his training.

[whiteflag]

Oliver is a jerk.

[pharaoh8]

no he's just pissed.

[Alexander III]

Ollie my man, u just made Clark pissed his damn pants :lol::rotfl:, u put a fata$_S needle STRRRRRRRRRRRAIGHT into that iron flesh iron skin of his, Clark's self-esteem might prolly took a dropzone straight dowwwwn.

Contary to Clark, Ollie's the MAN, the MAN whom sacrificed the love of his life to become a hero, to step out of the closet to save the world. Clarkie, tsk..tsk...tsk...

[amberdawn]

Oliver is a good person. He's just angry.

[pharaoh8]

yeah. and that little tell off that clark got is going to be a great thing for him. hopefully it makes his realize that he needs to step up his game x 100000000000.

[Razzle]

haha i was hoping after he said that clark would like backhand him or something...

[MrZeppo]

I think the confrontation between Ollie and Clark was really well played. Justin and Tom did a great job. The only bit that sounded kind of lame was when Ollie complained about the mosquitos on the island, lmao. But I loved how Ollie pretty much called Clark a coward, fully knowing Clark's abilities. Sure he had a bit of liquid courage in him, but he sure ripped Clark a new one. And he didn't even get the full story. It would have been great if Clark pulled up a stool and grabbed a glass and told him how heroic his parents were and everything about Veritas. I want to see that. For some reason, I still don't think Ollie knows Clark is an alien.

Even though I like their friendship, I'd like to see a bit of tension in their relationship. If things went back to status norm then the whole scene loses the impact it did.

[AndiGirl]

I think it was harsh....but there was some truth to it. Clark was judging Ollie for having one too many drinks after a hard day. I think Ollie was just reminding him that he has his own issues he needs to be focusing on.......

[individuall]

Also he was probably a little buzzed by then...Alcohol and anger...Never a good mix...

[skylar]

Ollie wanted Clark to hear how he is never going to go forward to his destiny which is kind of true.

[Alexander III]

Clark'z a LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSER, big L sign rite up ur .........

LOSER!!!!!!!!!!!!

[minerva73]

I disagree.

Oliver has absolutely no clue about what Clark has gone through and he's only yelling at him because of what he's seen. But Oliver hasn't experienced half of the crap that Clark has dealt with recently, so it just makes Oliver seem like a hypocrite.

I said this on the countdown thread, but Oliver hasn't been trapped in ice for a month (Gemini) or locked in a Phantom Zone (Zod). Oliver has been trapped on an island, but Clark has experienced things which were WAY worse, so that really made me dislike him...

Then Oliver has the nerve to bring up that Lionel Luthor stuff. He said that he wasn't going to kill him, but he was willing to kill Lionel's son instead? :rolleyes: Honestly, even when Clark found out that Lionel was doing things in his worst interest, he didn't try to hide the fact that he was upset. And even with that, it took numerous confessions and lies in order to get Clark to break (Phantom).

[amberdawn]

But you gotta understand that Oliver has went through things too. I know it's not as much as Clark has been through, but it's understandable to me that he is angry.

[ClarkyBoy14]

But, minerva, Ollie has had to face MOSQUITOS!!!!

:p

[myankskent]

I can't hang Oliver for what he said because he was drunk and taking out his anger on Clark. Clark didn't deserve what Oliver told him but I'd have more of a problem with it if Oliver were sober.

[Fallen One]

Ollie my man, u just made Clark pissed his damn pants :lol::rotfl:, u put a fata$_S needle STRRRRRRRRRRRAIGHT into that iron flesh iron skin of his, Clark's self-esteem might prolly took a dropzone straight dowwwwn.

Contary to Clark, Ollie's the MAN, the MAN whom sacrificed the love of his life to become a hero, to step out of the closet to save the world. Clarkie, tsk..tsk...tsk...

Oliver can talk down to Clark after he's stopped a couple of aliens from taking over the world, stopped a city from being drowned by a damn/blown up by a nuclear bomb, and after he personally saves millions of people.

Oliver is a joke compared to Clark. Its not even close with whose done more with his life. And the sad part is that Clark only begun to realize his potential.

[Razzle]

yeah wow wasnot expecting that long lecture from some supporting character haha

[AndiGirl]

I disagree.

Oliver has absolutely no clue about what Clark has gone through and he's only yelling at him because of what he's seen. But Oliver hasn't experienced half of the crap that Clark has dealt with recently, so it just makes Oliver seem like a hypocrite.

I said this on the countdown thread, but Oliver hasn't been trapped in ice for a month (Gemini) or locked in a Phantom Zone (Zod). Oliver has been trapped on an island, but Clark has experienced things which were WAY worse, so that really made me dislike him...

Then Oliver has the nerve to bring up that Lionel Luthor stuff. He said that he wasn't going to kill him, but he was willing to kill Lionel's son instead? :rolleyes: Honestly, even when Clark found out that Lionel was doing things in his worst interest, he didn't try to hide the fact that he was upset. And even with that, it took numerous confessions and lies in order to get Clark to break (Phantom).


I kind of took what he was saying as more of a metaphorical "Island." That.....being trapped on that island was Olli's defining point...where he stopped being afraid and started doing what he had to do.

So I totally agree...Clark has been through a lot, probably more then Ollie has ever seen. But I'm not sure Clarks had that "oh duh!" moment. Where it becomes clear to him what he needs to do. (obviously if he had he would be superman). He is still some what afraid, like Ollie said.

[theotherJane]

Every time Ollie steps onto the scene, he makes Clark look like a dumbass.

[ClarkyBoy14]

I can't hang Oliver for what he said because he was drunk and taking out his anger on Clark. Clark didn't deserve what Oliver told him but I'd have more of a problem with it if Oliver were sober.

Not to mention, he just found out that Lionel had killed his parents...

[pharaoh8]

well he's getting there. i see it as an angry version type pep talk.

[minerva73]

But you gotta understand that Oliver has went through things too. I know it's not as much as Clark has been through, but it's understandable to me that he is angry.

Yeah, I see that Oliver has had his share of problems, but to lash out like Clark like that makes it seem like he doesn't (and he most likely doesn't) know what Clark has gone through. Regardless of whether or not he was drunk, he still had those feelings deep inside of him IMO.

But, minerva, Ollie has had to face MOSQUITOS!!!!

:p

VERY true. :lol: It makes me look at this mosquito bite on the back of my hand and wanna scream because of what Oliver went through. Seriously.

[SVilleGal03]

Well, Ollie did exactly that in last season's "Siren." He accused Clark of literally not seeing the big picture ("You sit on a couch curled up in domestic bliss while a world of trouble spins outside your door!").

[WickedJenn]

But, minerva, Ollie has had to face MOSQUITOS!!!!

:p

:rotfl:

I think Ollie just had a bad night, along with being poisoned he finds out about his parents and Lionel.

I have to say though, Ollie will be eating his words, so to speak as Clark will be doing more than ever.

[ClarkyBoy14]

VERY true. :lol: It makes me look at this mosquito bite on the back of my hand and wanna scream because of what Oliver went through. Seriously.

:lol: I feel for you. Seeing how much the squeeters terrorized Ollie, I'll never take their bites lightly again. :p

[Randy G.]

Maybe Ollie's harsh words, are a necessary step for Clark to open his eyes a little more, but if I were Clark I'd still remind him to watch his mouth because I could splatter his ass all over that bar if I wanted to. :cool:

[Smallville6]

I really hated Ollie in this scene to be honest. He was a total jerk.
Clark has been through a lot. He's saved the world more then once and Ollie acts like he's better then him. He hasnt knowen everything Clark has been through, and yet he's judging him as if he has his whole life story.

[Alexander III]

:rotfl:

I think Ollie just had a bad night, along with being poisoned he finds out about his parents and Lionel.

I have to say though, Ollie will be eating his words, so to speak as Clark will be doing more than ever.

Do not forget, Ollie's DRUNK!! :lol::rotfl:

[WickedJenn]

I think of, though, in "Odyssey" how Ollie wouldn't give up on Clark and helped to rescue him.

I can see both sides on this I guess.

----- Added 49 Seconds later -----

Do not forget, Ollie's DRUNK!! :lol::rotfl:

Well yeah, I figured that was a given ;)

[Razzle]

haha bad day for Oliver but i would have still had clark do something rather than him look like he was about to cry or something, regardless i think having Ollie continously crap on Clark and tell him he should move forward is not really the answer i think clark should do it on his own, move forward on his own pace rather than being shat on becuase in essence thats the core element of superman of the alien who comes to earth and eventually turns into a great hero becuase of his own expireinces and his love for the human race

[austezie]

Whats all this sympathy for Clark? This Clark is the exact reason why peope think Superman is wuss. Clark doesn't need NICE anymore. It's clear what he needs to do but yet he wants to be slow. Clarks been slow for the past 4 seasons. So if I was his father, Oliver, or anyone else, he deserves everything he gets for being soft. Welcome to the real world. I hope Doomsday kicks his tail like he does in the comics. That might wake Clark up.

[Liquid-Prince]

I'm hoping the Doomsday fight will be epic. They should totally have more budget for that episode then Justice. Like three times the budget would be nice.

[Routh]

It was kind of grating, but I'll give Oliver a pass because he was drunk.

And eaten by MOSQUITOES!

[Meteror Freak]

Ollie's not a jerk, he was pissed because Clark was being all father figure on him again even though he just find out that maybe Lionel had a hand in his parent's demise. But I agree about the mosquitoes. That made me laugh.

[WickedJenn]

It was kind of grating, but I'll give Oliver a pass because he was drunk.

And eaten by MOSQUITOES!

Ok, who laughed out loud, literally, at that? I did!

[silverdragon]

oliver's angry and i get that....but he didn't have to lash out on clark like that...although the part about clark being afraid to face his destiny is kind of true...

[smallvillefreak24]

why does he have to take everything out on clark? i dont even know how it came to be about fears and destiny

[BadToad]

I thought Oliver was being an A**. Again. And I really hate this lecturing crap they have him doing with Clark. It doesn't make me think better of Oliver, and it doesn't do anything for Clark either. Its a worn out, OLD dynamic that does neither character any favors at this point.

And not for nothing, but Clark had just helped to save Oliver's life. When Oliver saved Clark's life in the first episode, Clark was grateful, Clark admitted he screwed up, and Clark didn't even get slightly miffed when Oliver put an arrow through his chest. But here? Clark does everything he can to help Oliver, and is instrumental in saving him? And he's got to listen to more crap from Oliver because Ollie is drunk and having a bad day. Screw that.

Bah, I wish Clark had punched him in the face. He was a jerk. And he really doesn't know enough about Clark to make so many judgements.

[Darth Pipes]

I can definitely understand Ollie's anger. Clark knew the truth about Lionel and didn't say anything. Really, you can say he covered for Lionel. Not to mention the fact that it probably bothered Ollie that he can't do anything to Lionel to avenge his parents, even with Lionel being long dead.

I don't think his rants against Clark held up this time though. Clark has been a lot more pro-active this season and has emerged from that shell he had himself in.

[SnowBird]

Ollie was a jerk and just repeated himself from other episodes and it is getting old. Clark just saved his life. Ollie likes to make himself feel more important by cutting his friend down. I'm getting tired of Ollie taking his frustration out on Clark. Clark is already making some improvement by working at the DP and saving people outside of his friends and family. I do think that Ollie telling Clark he hasn't been on his island yet is a hint of something to come for Clark.

[Cyn]

Color me stupid, but I don't understand this poll. There wasn't a place to check none of the above because it doesn't make sense as stated. I have seen posts that make sense and posts that don't make sense, but I have yet to see anything that answers the question...Whatever the question was... What exactly was the question of the poll?

[Ginx]

Oliver is a good person. He's just angry.

I agree. Clark needed to hear that. He needs someone to TELL him to stop dragging around. Sure he had an epiphany that he needs to move on with his life but has he really moved on? Sure he's working at the DP but what else has really changed for him? I am glad that Ollie cares enough to tell Clark that AGAIN! I'm sure to Ollie, here's this guy who can do all these super things but he's not helping the greater good - it might get on Ollie's nerves. He needs a partner not a pool boy.

[Clana4Life]

Alexander III, who is the love of Oliver's life? Who were you talking about Tess or Lois? Seems like he broke Tess's heart. You think he sacrificed his relationship with her to become Green Arrow?

[BadToad]

He needs someone to TELL him to stop dragging around.

No, he really doesn't. Its HIS life, and he gets to live it on his OWN time table, not Oliver's. It seems like Oliver was just pissing his life away when circumstances changed his perspective. So, why does he
not respect that Clark has the choice to live his life on his own terms? Does he even know half of whats gone on in Clark's life? No, he really doesn't, so he can shove his lectures and his condescending nonsense. Maybe next time he's poisoned, Clark can just remind Oliver how useless he apparently is (per Oliver), and let Ollie cure himself.

Sure he had an epiphany that he needs to move on with his life but has he really moved on? Sure he's working at the DP but what else has really changed for him?

It seems to me that Clark has changed his whole outlook. But one minute people are yelling "lightswitch", and now he's not changing fast enough? See, this is why I always say that Clark never seems to be able to win. He's run down no matter what he does.

Clark said he's working at the DP so that he can know about things when they happen. That sounds like a pretty big move to me. Instead of talking crap to Clark, maybe Oliver might've asked him?

I am glad that Ollie cares enough to tell Clark that AGAIN!

Maybe if Oliver cared about Clark, he'd bother to know more about what goes on in Clark's life before launching into condescending lectures.

I don't think Oliver needs a partner. I think he needs a smack. Really, sitting in a bar, getting hammered is the answer to his problems? Yeah, what a role model he is.

[warriorrenegade]

I get how Ollie is drunk and angry etc.. I get it. But don't have Clark just stand there and take it. It was weak and insulting. Hell Clark should've just bent over and asked Ollie to atleast spit on it. Seriously.

[SnowBird]

I agree. Clark needed to hear that. He needs someone to TELL him to stop dragging around. Sure he had an epiphany that he needs to move on with his life but has he really moved on? Sure he's working at the DP but what else has really changed for him? I am glad that Ollie cares enough to tell Clark that AGAIN! I'm sure to Ollie, here's this guy who can do all these super things but he's not helping the greater good - it might get on Ollie's nerves. He needs a partner not a pool boy.

You are saying Clark isn't moving fast enough towards his destiny. Others are saying he is moving too fast by all of a sudden ending up in Metropolis at the DP. Really, Clark just can't win. I think poor Ollie is losing it and took it out on Clark. Secrets are kept for a reason and I believe Clark was right to keep Lionel's past from Ollie since he could have tried to kill Lionel. I don't think Clark was worried about Lionel as he was about his friend becoming a murderer. I don't think Clark needed to be cut down again. He gets it already. Ollie just needs to work on himself and the first thing is to not drink to forget or ease the pain. That never works. The pool boy remark was a little harsh.

[petitemimi]

I don't think his rants against Clark held up this time though. Clark has been a lot more pro-active this season and has emerged from that shell he had himself in.

Yeah, but see, Caroline Dries didn't watch the first 2 episodes so...

I thought Oliver was being an A**. Again. And I really hate this lecturing crap they have him doing with Clark. It doesn't make me think better of Oliver, and it doesn't do anything for Clark either. Its a worn out, OLD dynamic that does neither character any favors at this point.

And not for nothing, but Clark had just helped to save Oliver's life. When Oliver saved Clark's life in the first episode, Clark was grateful, Clark admitted he screwed up, and Clark didn't even get slightly miffed when Oliver put an arrow through his chest. But here? Clark does everything he can to help Oliver, and is instrumental in saving him? And he's got to listen to more crap from Oliver because Ollie is drunk and having a bad day. Screw that.

Bah, I wish Clark had punched him in the face. He was a jerk. And he really doesn't know enough about Clark to make so many judgements.

I agree. That supposed friendship that we were told about at the beginning of the season didn't last long. Oliver's still a jerk in a perpetual pissing contest with Clark. He SO doesn't deserve Clark's time, it's not even funny. And we're stuck with him for a whole season. Ugh.

[Dannyblue1]

I'm sorry, but if I found out one of my closest friends knew who murdered my parents, and chose not to tell me about it (and didn't do a damn thing to see that person brought to any kind of justice for it) they would've gotten a whole lot more than what Ollie gave to Clark tonight.

And I agree with Ollie. Clark's got all these powers, and is darned near invulnerable. But he is so hesitant about everything. And here's Ollie, with no powers at all, stepping up.

Yes, what Ollie said was harsh. But the truth often is.

[Meteror Freak]

From the way Lionel reacted on hearing about the death of the Queens, I doubt that he had a hand in their death. He was after the veritas key but I just don't believe he was the one who did it. Lionel was surprised to hear about the plane crash in Lex's flashback, and he asked what happened to the key. Then his assistant handed it to him. His assistants stole the key, but that doesn't mean that they killed them.

[susangail]

SV Ollie's started on his way to his own private Hell, just like his comic counterpart.

[BadToad]

I'm sorry, but if I found out one of my closest friends knew who murdered my parents, and chose not to tell me about it (and didn't do a damn thing to see that person brought to any kind of justice for it) they would've gotten a whole lot more than what Ollie gave to Clark tonight.

And if he wants to rant on Clark for that, I can understand it. I wouldn't hold that against him. But thats not the subject he stuck to.

And I agree with Ollie. Clark's got all these powers, and is darned near invulnerable. But he is so hesitant about everything. And here's Ollie, with no powers at all, stepping up.

And thats Oliver's choice, but unless he knows everything about Clark...he doesn't...and knows exactly what Clark's experiances are...he doesn't....then he can shove it. Oliver is making the choice for his own life. Clark gets to do the same for his. Clark is also some years younger then Oliver, and thats also going to factor into his decisions.

But really, in an episode where Clark just ran to Brazil to get an antidote to save Oliver's life, did he really deserve this lecture that was bette suited to last year?

[Fish1941]

Oliver has absolutely no clue about what Clark has gone through and he's only yelling at him because of what he's seen. But Oliver hasn't experienced half of the crap that Clark has dealt with recently, so it just makes Oliver seem like a hypocrite.

How can Oliver be a hypocrite if he doesn't know half of what Clark had experienced? And I'm shock that I'm saying this, but . . . Oliver was right about Clark.

Clark is the one who goes out of his way to claim that he wants to help others . . . yet, he keeps holding himself back. If he doesn't want to use his powers to constantly help others and simply prefer to lead his own life, then Clark had a good excuse to tell Oliver to kiss his ass. But Clark is always hinting that he wants to be a savior. Yet, he goes about it in a half-assed manner. So, I have to agree with Oliver.

[Ginx]

You are saying .....

The pool boy remark was a little harsh.

I'm simply stating my own opinion as you are stating yours. We will just have to respectfully agree to disagree.

[Randy G.]

[Mod Note:] The poll question was a mess, but now it's fixed.

I've also added a "None of the above" option as requested.

[MozartRequiem]

"From the way Lionel reacted on hearing about the death of the Queens, I doubt that he had a hand in their death. He was after the veritas key but I just don't believe he was the one who did it. Lionel was surprised to hear about the plane crash in Lex's flashback, and he asked what happened to the key. Then his assistant handed it to him. His assistants stole the key, but that doesn't mean that they killed them."

I see what you mean, but I took Lionel's reaction less as surprise and more as a slight ping of remorse. I think he totally calculated and planned the whole thing, perhaps conspiring with Genevieve (I think that's who he was on the phone with before his men came into his office and told him the news). Lionel sighed a bit, like, "it had to be done" sort of thing, but he seemed to feel slightly bad about it. Maybe he respected the Queens and this was at a point where Lionel wasn't a complete sociopath yet. I think it was just a really cool subtle moment from the great John Glover.

My thoughts on the Ollie versus Clark argument tonight: it was incredibly well scripted and well acted! The way it was played made us feel for BOTH Oliver AND Clark. Oliver's anger was completely justified in that his best friend covered for the murderer of his parents, but of course we, the audience, have been with Clark on this journey and understand why he did it: Lionel truly was trying to change, and I think that Clark knew Lionel was already paying for his sins in his own mind. Also, like he said to Oliver, he didn't want Oliver to do something he'd regret. So Clark is stuck in between these two mentor figures in his life, trying to save both of their souls! Clark is the hero in this situation, so we feel for him, but of course we an understand where Oliver is coming from, not knowing all that we and Clark knows. Oliver's words were harsh, yet in some ways correct. But Clark has been trying to accept his destiny this season. I wish Clark would've spoken up for himself, but maybe he just knows that Oliver needs to feel this anger right now, and he'd rather him take it out on him than someone else. It also seemed Oliver hit a nerve, because, when you're trying to escape your past errors and sins only to have someone through them back in your face, it definitely hits an emotional reaction in you. Tom shined in showing this, and Justin was amazing at showing the mix of bitter anger and the brotherly love that made that anger all the more unbearable.

Kudos to all involved!

[Dannyblue1]

From the way Lionel reacted on hearing about the death of the Queens, I doubt that he had a hand in their death.

There's no doubt in my mind Lionel killed Ollie's parents. I mean he killed his own. Even tried to kill his own child quite a few times. And I think it's pretty obvious he killed the Queen's. There was no other reason for that scene to even be in that episode other than to point this out. And I don't think he showed any surprise at all. Maybe some mild remorse, like MozartRequiem said. But that's about it.

As for whether or not I think Clark had the right to decide Lionel had suffered enough for his sins, that's another story.

[cygnusx1]

i dunno, i thought clark has been on an island for years.

[Kal-ed]

Werent we supposed to be done with the Ollie Lecturing Clark thing??

That being said, he was drunk and just found out the truth about the death of his parents, so I guess I could understand him, we all have a lousy day when we say bad stuff to people we care about that we dont even mean, IMO that´s why didnt answer anything he figured he´d just let Ollie vent.

Plus i think it was kind of hinting at Doomsday, that Clark is yet to have his "big challenge" his "island".

----- Added 15 Minutes later -----

And if he wants to rant on Clark for that, I can understand it. I wouldn't hold that against him. But thats not the subject he stuck to.

I cant talk from your experience but when it comes to mine, Ive had people bringing on crap that´s got nothing to do with the real reason they are mad, all my life. When I was younger my dad brought up my grades everytime he had had a bad day, I remember on one ocation my mom brought up my earing 2 years after I stoped using it, just cause she was ranting about something about loosing a big client thanks to an uneffective secretary, I just got caught up in the whirlwind. Ive had 4 girlfriends and as a rule of thum they´ve all brought up past problems/controversies, that I thought we were over everytime we got into an argument, I would say something like "your the one that didnt____________" and they´d come up with a "well remember when you_______" (which had happened 3 months prior to the current discussion) and Im like "what´s that got to do with what we´r discussing now". Now I dont want to generalize, I can only talk from my experience and talking to my buddies we´ve all had the same problem but my point is people just say nasty and unrelated stuff when they´r angry and/or upset.




But really, in an episode where Clark just ran to Brazil to get an antidote to save Oliver's life, did he really deserve this lecture that was bette suited to last year?

I would completly agree if I didnt think that Oliver was having a cathartic moment instead of actually lecturing Clark but the way I saw the scene play out, he was venting and took it out on Clark, who on top of everything did hide that detail about his parents.

[Jlvsclrk]

I understand WHY Ollie said what he said, drunkeness combined by the same lack of perception displayed in Rage, mistakenly equating near physical invulnerability with no need to be afraid. Of course Clark is afraid of telling the truth to his friends: look at how they react when he does. As others have said, Ollie revealed an appalling lack of empathy here. He does not have any idea of what Clark has been through. The situation with Lionel was very unusual, Ollie has consisntently shown himself as reacting in anger with near deadly force: it makes sense to me that Clark would hesitate to talk to him about it, especially given the timing issues. Specifically, I don't think that Clark knew about Lionel's involvement in the Queen's death until very late in S7, when he obviously had a lot on his hands tracking down Brainiac and Lex's Veritas quest. Those flashback's of Lex about the Queens were in 8-15 Veritas (not 8-12 Fracture when Clark was in his mind). Did Clark ever know the whole story about all the Veritas team until he met with Teague in 8-19? I suppose he might have read about it in Swann's journal, but if Swann knew about Lionel killing the Queens, why didn't HE take action. Oh well, retcon that away. Regardless, Lionel was dead by 8-16 so I don't think Clark had time to talk to Ollie about such a delicate situation with all the other pressures on him at the time.

[Kal-ed]

I imagine being drunk and finding out my parents where murdered, id be a lot less simpathetic than Ollie, specially if my friend new about that.

Dont get me wrong Im not a huge ollie fan (at all) nor am I out to get Clark (Im a huge Clark fan, specially this season) but from my POV Ollie´s terrible and otherrwise (under diferent cirumstances) unexcusable behaviour, was par on course with how someone would feel under those circumstances, he lashed out at Clark, I dont think the writers where actually trying to paint Ollie being right, they wanted his feelings to surface and it ended up in that foolish "lecture" to Clark.

[Jlvsclrk]

I imagine being drunk and finding out my parents where murdered, id be a lot less simpathetic than Ollie, specially if my friend new about that.

Dont get me wrong Im not a huge ollie fan (at all) nor am I out to get Clark (Im a huge Clark fan, specially this season) but from my POV Ollie´s terrible and otherrwise (undere diferente cirumstances) unexcusable behaviour, was par on course with how someone would feel under those circumstances, he lashed out at Clark, I dont think the writers where actually trying to paint Ollie being right, they wanted his feelings to surface and it ended up in that foolish "lecture" to Clark.

I HOPE so. I just hate if the writers think that what Ollie said is true. I guess that's because of some of the comments made in the commentary on Siren in the S7 boxed set.

[ginnyfan]

I think this was another of Oliver's angry at the world rants. Again, there is a grain of truth in all of Oliver's unfair ranting. Clark has good reason to think that Oliver WOULD kill Lionel. LOL! He tried to kill Lex at least twice and succeeded one of those times. Clark does need to take a look at the way fear drives him sometimes though... *shrug*

Oliver is hotheaded and doesn't censor himself.

Good point Kal-ed about Oliver's parents.

[JEWCY]

when did clark ever find out about lionel luthor killing queen's parents? I remember the flashback, but I don't remember Clark ever finding out about it (if it happened in offscreenville, o well)

thought it was pretty cool how they brought that back up though at the end

[morrigan01]

I understand WHY Ollie said what he said, drunkeness combined by the same lack of perception displayed in Rage, mistakenly equating near physical invulnerability with no need to be afraid. Of course Clark is afraid of telling the truth to his friends: look at how they react when he does. As others have said, Ollie revealed an appalling lack of empathy here. He does not have any idea of what Clark has been through. The situation with Lionel was very unusual, Ollie has consisntently shown himself as reacting in anger with near deadly force: it makes sense to me that Clark would hesitate to talk to him about it, especially given the timing issues. Specifically, I don't think that Clark knew about Lionel's involvement in the Queen's death until very late in S7, when he obviously had a lot on his hands tracking down Brainiac and Lex's Veritas quest. Those flashback's of Lex about the Queens were in 8-15 Veritas (not 8-12 Fracture when Clark was in his mind). Did Clark ever know the whole story about all the Veritas team until he met with Teague in 8-19? I suppose he might have read about it in Swann's journal, but if Swann knew about Lionel killing the Queens, why didn't HE take action. Oh well, retcon that away. Regardless, Lionel was dead by 8-16 so I don't think Clark had time to talk to Ollie about such a delicate situation with all the other pressures on him at the time.

Remember, Patricia Swann told Clark at the end of Traveler that Lionel had the Queen's plane sabotaged. That was episode 8-14, the episode before we got the official flashback to seeing Lionel taking about the Queen's deaths. So unless Clark thought Patricia was lying - and I seriously doubt he did - he's known for a fact that Lionel Luthor killed Ollie's parents since Patricia told him so. Though, at that point Clark wasn't exactly on speaking terms with Lionel himself either. ;)

[Kal-ed]

I HOPE so. I just hate if the writers think that what Ollie said is true. I guess that's because of some of the comments made in the commentary on Siren in the S7 boxed set.

I do remember that PS3 said that this time around its not Ollie but Clark (as it should) giving the hero lectures, so I think this one doesnt count for them cause not even Ollie meant it.

[yaseen101]

This is how I saw the situation:

"People expect us to be perfect. Infallible, to always make the right decisions, but we can't always do that and sometimes certain people like to point it out in the worst way possible."

That was what Superman said to Kara after she stopped a villain at a foot ball stadium by smashing a truck on to her and everyone threw stuff at her because she ruined the game. I'm sure Clark is thinking the same thing.

[jimmyolsenblues]

i know superman does not drink.
i know clark probably is invulnerable to alcohol.
please forgive.
i would have LOVED to see clark do shots with ollie.

[Clarks Blue Eyed Angel]

I'm sort of blown away by this entire debate.

So then, no one here has ever gotten some bad news, gotten trashed, and then lashed out at someone they cared about? Really?

It's not really a big deal. Oliver was justified in his anger, he had a right to vent (and probably a need to), and Clark graciously took it because he knew this, and he knew as well that he had let his friend down and hurt him by keeping the secret about his parents' death.

I think the whole thing about Clark not stepping up to his destiny was sort of a non sequitur insult that had nothing to do with anything they were talking about, but Ollie was drunk and angry and lashing out and looking for something to throw at Clark. May have been true, but I don't think Ollie's liquor-addled brain was really trying to form a coherent argument in any case, I think it was just looking to insult Clark. So "I got eaten by mosquitoes and I'm fearless now, and you're still a big cry baby, so there!" is what he came out with.

The reactions of both characters were totally understandable and forgivable, and both Justin and Tom did an amazing job. I love them onscreen together, and not just for the pretty. They've got great chemistry.

Speaking of great chemistry... Chloe and Ollie. If this thing with Jimmy falls through, I say bring on the Chlollie!! And isn't Lois in need of a smack down, all "I know Oliver better than anyone"? I wanted Chloe to say "Oh, really? You know your ex-bf, who you never speak to anymore, better than myself, who spends a good bit of my free time communicating with and working with him?" :rolleyes: I get that Lois thinks she's the only one who knows he's GA (right?), but it still grates my cheese.

Yeah, OT, but that was just something that annoyed me. Way more than a drunk Ollie/Clark confrontation ever could.

[costas22]

Well even though he was drunk and very upset over the news about Lionel he should have remembered that he shot Clark with 2 arrows in Odyssey.That was a turning point,an island of sorts,for Clark himself.Either way,it was horrible to have such a dialogue at this point when they are trying to make Clark accept his destiny.

[lauraforever]

Just get drunk with ollie, Clark!

[Estro-gen X]

Ollie does have the high ground though. Look at it this way he pooled all his resources to find Clark because of his belief in him and wasn't going to stop. Hey Clark where's your cousin? Have you tried looking for her yet? Have you expressed sadness that she's gone? 1-nil to ollie. Ollie helps people on a world wide scale, clark sticks to kansas mostly unless its directly his fault that something elsewhere is ballsed up. two-nil to ollie. We could go on for a while. Fact is that Ollie has been there and done that and become the hero we see, clark hasn't but will. I get the feeling though that if the Martian were saying this there wouldn't be a contraversy perhaps because he's significantly older and has 'jor-el approval'.

But for those fans annoyed here is ollie getting whats coming after a righteous tirade
http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k318/04nbod/2vafp0m.jpg

[myankskent]

I imagine being drunk and finding out my parents where murdered, id be a lot less simpathetic than Ollie, specially if my friend new about that.


Agreed. Also, Oliver wasn't exactly going to Clark looking for trouble. Clark came to him and began the lecturing by telling him to stop drinking. Now Clark is correct in what he said, but when you're dealing with a person who is clearly having a bad day and who is also drunk, proceed with caution. Also, I understand that Clark had just saved Oliver, but Oliver saved Clark multiple times in the past as well so it's not like Oliver hasn't done anything to help out Clark, and of course, a person who is drunk is not going to be thinking about this kind of stuff anyway, IMO.

[yaseen101]

Also MM has been watching Clark since childhood so he knows more about Clark than Ollie. Also one nil for Clark for moving on and getting a job at the DP, another nil for helping the people on the bus, Green Arrow would have swooped by helped a couple of people of the bus, find some stuff from the cops and leave but Clark stayed there the whole time and helped everyone. The third nil for Clark is trying to find an antidote for Ollie and raced around the world for it and a fourth for trying to rescue Chloe from the Montanna facility without any powers. Also I know that Ollie was drunk but saying something like that to Clark was out of no where and it was just placed by the writer so randomly. This is not the Clark from Season 6 or 7 people haven't you seen the last two episodes Clark didn't deserve it and the writer should have gone a different route with the dialogue instead.

[curiosity]

Having Oliver tell Clark he was afraid of everything was just silly. Clark has fought and defeated some scary people and lost his powers a few times, almost died helping people like in the last episode when Ollie, I don't know.......shot him and almost killed him. He's also traveled billions of miles from his home planet as a baby, got trapped in the phantom zone, fought Brainiac.. if that's not scary I don't know what is.

I thought Clark should have changed clothes for the bar scene. No suit after hours for Clark would be a good idea.

[optinox]

Ollie and Clark have both went through alot but you can't compare them, one is human, the other is Kyrptonian. As a Kyptonian with abilities such as Clark his struggles were his own, just like Ollie as a human being with no abilities, and mortal has had his own struggles.

Ollie was upset cause he almost died, he was probably a bit buzzed from the shots he was doing, and the fact that the info Tess gave him made him question Clarks trust, and friendship.

I'm not sure if there's proof that Lionel had Ollies parents killed or if it was Lex, i also can't remember how old Ollie was when his parents died. If it was a long time ago, then Lionel would've been bad and I could see him doing that (this would tie in with Veritas), if later in life then it could've been Lex cause he was seeking information on Veritas. I think it was Lionel so he could get the Key. Clark should've told Ollie but when he found out Lionel was on his side, being the vessel for Jor-El.

Clark definately needs to complete his training or the FOS, or at least walking the path of his destiny, he's being more proactive now but i think what Ollie was trying to say is Clark has all this wonderful abilities, and there going to waste, instead Clark should wake up and start using his gifts for the greater good, and to realize that his destiny and life is much more important to earth, humankind than he realizes.

[Mischael12]

I think he meant fearless in the sense something that wasn't based on some decision Clark made, and Clark faced it.

His losing his powers, all that stuff, even his fathers death was based on a decision, the release of Zod, too be trapped in the Phantom zone. It all had repercussions on what had happened to him. And in the end instead of being more pro-active and stopping these things from happening he retreated deeper into himself. It was almost as if he was hoping that if he ignored it it would go away.

Because he is afraid of it happening again. I hope I explained that right.

[wooosmallville]

I think Ollie made a great point. Although Clark has saved the world, its all been reactive for him. If he had stepped up and done what was necessary most of what has happened would not have happened. That's probably what Ollie was referring to. He's right because Clark has not been proactive. Clark needs to realize who he is and what he can do. Ollie has realized who he is and what he can do. He is not afraid to challenge people and to step up when needed. We haven't really seen Clark do that consistently yet.

[Silent Kal]

I really liked the scene, but I wish there'd been more to it. Once Ollie tore into Clark, rather than "punching him out" (not a very Clark-like thing to do, I think), I wish Clark had grabbed him firmly and walked him out into the hallway, or into a side room or something, and set him straight. Ollie would think Clark wants to fight him, and Clark shoves him into a chair and says, "Just listen to me, all right? yeah, I knew about it, but I had no proof, and I wasn't going to send you off without proof. maybe you wouldn't have killed lionel like you say, but the Ollie i'm looking at right now, I'm not so sure he'd have that same restraint. I'm sorry I didn't tell you before; maybe I should have. But the reason they were murdered had as much to do with me as anyone. Your parents knew about me--they knew a "traveller" was coming, and your father swore to help Virgil Swann protect that traveller from Lionel's control. And Lionel killed him for it. Your parents died for trying to protect me. And I won't ever forget that."

[yaseen101]

Also Clark aren't a reactive hero anymore he is now working at the DP to be in the middle of the action so that he can go and help people. He is trying to be more proactive ever since Lex found his secret and apparently some people in this board and the writer Caroline Dries forgot that. Now if you please excuse me, I am going to scour the internet to find comics where Ollie gets beaten up and imagine it's Clark there.

[Mad Madam Mimm]

Ok, who laughed out loud, literally, at that? I did!


Actually, it came out more as a derisive snort than a laugh. For a moment I was transported to a far away distant TV novello... In my opinion, that line nearly blew the whole scene.

I'll re-watch the episode and comment in more depth later. I am at work and can't stop to play :(

[morrigan01]

I'm not sure if there's proof that Lionel had Ollies parents killed or if it was Lex, i also can't remember how old Ollie was when his parents died. If it was a long time ago, then Lionel would've been bad and I could see him doing that (this would tie in with Veritas), if later in life then it could've been Lex cause he was seeking information on Veritas. I think it was Lionel so he could get the Key. Clark should've told Ollie but when he found out Lionel was on his side, being the vessel for Jor-El.


Go back and watch Veritas. Lex had nothing to do with it as both he and Ollie were both kids when Ollie's parents were killed. (Maybe about 7 or 8 years old). Lex overheard his father talking to some minion about it, directly implying Lionel was the one responsible for the plane crash so he could get Robert Queen's Veritas key.

[AndiGirl]

i know superman does not drink.
i know clark probably is invulnerable to alcohol.
please forgive.
i would have LOVED to see clark do shots with ollie.

I actually would have liked that too!! :lol:
I mean, we know he went drinking with Lois....and he could have been Ollie's designated run home.

Basically....Ollie had a very bad day. He almost died, he found out his parents were killed by Lionel and Clark new all along, and then a woman he once had feelings for is basically becoming evil.

I dont think it would have killed clark to humor him.

But...I also wouldnt have blamed Clark for popping him in the face....so I'm a bit wishy washy on the suject! :p

[RedKRules]

Whatever, just get drunk w/ Ollie.... for some reason I chose this one!:lol:

----- Added 1 Minutes later -----



But...I also wouldnt have blamed Clark for popping him in the face....so I'm a bit wishy washy on the suject! :p

Odyssey again :p:p :eek:;)

[Kevin24]

I would have liked Clark to have punched Oliver in the face. Sometimes people sound stupid and Oliver sounded stupid and the face Clark gave Oliver gave me the impression he felt the same way about what Oliver was saying.

He had a right to be mad about him not telling him about his parents but then he goes off on a whole other subject and Clark being the great guy that he is lets him and doesn't do anything. He understands he is just ranting and probably doesn't mean what he is saying so he lets him rant. Clark is a good guy because I know most of us would have yelled at him or got in a fight with him.

Clark is afraid of something but Oliver got it all wrong and Clark's fear is that everyone he loves and cares about will die. That is Clark's greatest fear.

[cksidekick]

Clark can't get drunk with Oliver...forget the fact that alcohol won't affect him...

if they decided to kill off a fifth of tequila, by the end of the night, they would both be crying and swearing loyalty to each other and all of this drama would be worked out in just a few short hours...you know! the REAL way grown men handle this kind of thing....:lol:

what about the rest of the season? we would just be bored...;)

[Joelito]

What always do.. "Go back into his closet and cry like a baby"

[MrZeppo]

LOL, the mosquito line really almost ruined it for me too. Oh noooo! The mosquitos. LMAO. Please Ollie, my family comes from a jungle with huge mosquitos the size of flies that really do practically eat you alive, and at most they are an inconvenience. LOL!

See, I think the root of this argument is that drunk Ollie essentially said he was better than Clark and has really suffered and been put to the test. We, as the viewers, know the real truth that Ollie doesn't. Clark has suffered a lot over the years. That's why a part of me still doesn't believe Ollie knows Clark is an alien. If Ollie did really know, then I don't think he'd be so quick to judge. Clark does have a reason not to be so trusting. How many times has he been betrayed? How much has he lost? His family? His whole race?

But really, Clark had the rant coming to him. I agree with many, Clark has really stepped up this season and become more proactive, so being told he is a coward is a real slap to the face. But Clark did know Lionel murdered the Queens and didn't say anything to Ollie. If I were in Ollie's position, I'd take a swing at Clark regardless of invulnerablity or not. It was a betrayal of Ollie's trust. It was not up to Clark to judge what was best for Ollie.

On the flip side, Ollie was out of line. If he really knew how Clark had suffered, maybe he wouldn't be so quick to judge.

I really would have loved to see Clark pull up a barstool and grab a shotglass (regardless of getting drunk or not) and start explaining who he really is and what really happened to the Queens.

[Kevin24]

What always do.. "Go back into his closet and cry like a baby"

He has never done that so why do you say he should do what he always does?:rolleyes:

[curiosity]

I thought Oliver was being an A**. Again. And I really hate this lecturing crap they have him doing with Clark. It doesn't make me think better of Oliver, and it doesn't do anything for Clark either. Its a worn out, OLD dynamic that does neither character any favors at this point.

And not for nothing, but Clark had just helped to save Oliver's life. When Oliver saved Clark's life in the first episode, Clark was grateful, Clark admitted he screwed up, and Clark didn't even get slightly miffed when Oliver put an arrow through his chest. But here? Clark does everything he can to help Oliver, and is instrumental in saving him? And he's got to listen to more crap from Oliver because Ollie is drunk and having a bad day. Screw that.

Bah, I wish Clark had punched him in the face. He was a jerk. And he really doesn't know enough about Clark to make so many judgements.

Ditto.

It's not up to friends to explain to you who murdered your parents. Maybe Clark didn't want to get involved. Just like Oliver said, he thought he'd might do something irrational. It wasn't Clark's job to involved in that. Oliver needed to find that info himself.

[stenochick]

For a "filler episode" Toxic is sure sparking some great discussion.

Here are my thoughts on the topic from another thread:

The one thing I am still wrestling with is Ollie calling Clark out on his fears. He told him that perhaps he has not had his "desert island" yet, which I assume was to foreshadow his ultimate battle with Doomsday.

But, really?

Ollie is saying this to Clark after 1. Ollie killed him, 2. Clark spent a month in slave labor 3. the FOS collapsed on him, he lost his powers, and sans powers hiked through the Arctic, 4. he fought and defeated Brainiac after spending several weeks watching his lover suffer horribly, 5. he fought and defeated Bizarro as well as a handful of other zoners, 6. he was trapped in the phantom zone, 7. his adoptive father died, 8. his birth parents died along with his entire race, 9. he landed on earth as an orphaned, helpless toddler.

Correct me if I left anything out.

But, I do agree with Ollie. Clark is a fearful guy and it does hinder him (flying) physically, mentally, and emotionally. Plus, Ollie was drunk and just found out one of his best friends knew that Lionel murdered his parents.

IMO, there is something so sublime about Clark (that has been hidden for two and half seasons) that he does not feel the need to defend himself, or put Ollie down, or come down to angry, drunken Ollie's level in that moment.

He is the same way with Lois. In the last scene in Odyssey, when Lois tells him that he did great on his first outing as a hero, he just smiles and lets her believe that she is "better" than him.

It reminds me of this quote from Lionel to Clark in one of the older seasons when he says something like, true power is kept hidden or something like that. If anyone knows that quote, please tell me. I cannot find it.

[Nuberman]

It seems like everyone is missing the point to this whole thing. I don't think the concentration should be on who was right or wrong and who's feelings got hurt. This particular conversation was not done in order to call Clark to the floor. The conversation was an obvious foreshadow for a future event in this season where Clark will be on his island, and the turn will take place. THAT is what the whole conversation was for. I think this whole thread (outside a few poster) is running in circles around what the writers were trying to do. They wanted to foreshadow a storm that's coming. This old tired "Meet your destiny Clark!" conversation just happened to be the way they told it. It's kinda like this. Everyone is paying attention to the car that just drove up, but not to the person sitting in it.

[Estro-gen X]

See, I think the root of this argument is that drunk Ollie essentially said he was better than Clark and has really suffered and been put to the test. We, as the viewers, know the real truth that Ollie doesn't. Clark has suffered a lot over the years. That's why a part of me still doesn't believe Ollie knows Clark is an alien. If Ollie did really know, then I don't think he'd be so quick to judge. Clark does have a reason not to be so trusting. How many times has he been betrayed? How much has he lost? His family? His whole race?


Ollie is better than clark. Clark hasn't suffered or been put to the test. We know the truth and that is that Ollie is right. Clark hasn't suffered like Ollie has. Ollie had the right to judge.

Clark has lost his parents who he never actually knew. He gained two loving adoptive parents. One died of a heart attack when clark was in his late teens.
Ollie has lost his parents who he actually knew. He didn't gain any adoptive parents. He lost his parents as a child (from the GA chronicles) and grew up without a family.

Clark lost his whole race. Before the pilot clark didn't know he had a whole race to lose. Its never been shown to be a massive loss for him as he identifies earth as his home. He strives to be 'normal' meaning an earthling so kryptonian culture doesn't really mean anything to him.

Clark's biggest challenge has been keeping the secret that he was an alien.
Ollie's challenge has been keeping the secret he is green arrow.

Clark lost Lana.
Ollie lost Mercy and Lois, probably more but doesn't moan about it.

Clark's toughest enemy was bizarro who in the end proved easy to defeat once he was told of his weakness. bizarro just wanted to cuddle up with lana.
Ollie's toughest enemy was the 33.1 project which spanned globally. Thousands of people were victims. It took months for him and his team to neutralise the threat

Clark's biggest physical challenge was titan. As Superman does most of the time he hit him until he went down and hoped he was still standing.
Ollie's biggest physical challenge was being stranded on an island for two years with murderers. It was an ongoing battle for survival and escape. He used his smarts to create a bow which he used with deadly accuracy to injure his captors and make a break.

[geminis]

I also need to go back and watch the scene more carefully but I do want to say this.

Oliver was drunk. Oliver had a near death experience. Oliver is angry at the news of his parents' death and the fact that Clark might have had some news about it and didn't share it. Along comes Clark, Mr. Perfect, Mr. Invulnerable, Mr. Milkshake. Begin drunken tirade. Oliver doesn't have an inkling of how much Clark has truly gone through. He doesn't know that Clark's entire race was destroyed or anything about the Zoners. He does know that Clark has unbelievable powers and very seldom chooses to use them. He also knows that Lionel and Clark had a twisted kind of father/son relationship but chooses to ignore the fact that parents don't tell their children everything. He was pointing out that Clark's metaphorical island where he stops denying his past and his abilities is still out there waiting.

Oliver is not a poster boy for perfection and has a reputation for being somewhat of a rebel and a hothead. Mr. Milkshake, aka Clark, would never punch someone unless they warranted it and I'm pretty sure he doesn't feel threatened by a drunken tirade. As for Lionel, well, I need to think about that a little more in detail but I do think that Clark might have been biding his time to reveal the information at a more appropriate time, aka offscreensville.

[chlo-el]

Clark has a lot of "Island and those moments where he decides to embrace his destiny but he won't truely have it until he completely and 100% gets over Lana. Until that moment happens he won't accept his destiny. The only way we can truely see that is when Clark flies. Then we'll know for sure.

----- Added 1 Minutes later -----

Oh and as for Ollies actions. I think he is justified in saying what he said. He found out the Lionel killed his parants and Clark was ready to lie to him about it. Of course he's going to be upset.

[Azra-El]

I really love the way that Ollie spoke to Clark. The classic line of the night was when he told Clark," Yeah..uh..Clark. Why don't you stick to your milkshakes...huh? I'll know when I have had enough." I about fell out of my chair laughing. I want to make that my ringtone.:rotfl::lol::rotfl:



*Azra-El*

[umm]

Ollie is partly right, Clark is afraid of a lot of things, which hiders him from becoming the hero he is meant to be! But he is finally on the right path and he will eventually learn to overcome those fears, hopefully sooner rather than later!

[smallv17]

Ollie was ungrateful in my opinion!

Clark saved his life 24 hours ago and now he's all drunk blaming him for being afraid.

If this conversation happened in season 7 I'd say Oliver was right! BUT this is season 8 folks and Clark is totally not the person Ollie described!

Maybe this is a glimpse Of What PS3 said about Oliver starting to have second thoughts on being a hero...

[magic]

Oliver was so so right
finally somebody had the nerve to come out and say it
Clark is a coward!
and everyone around him have been too busy worshiping him to tell him the truth in the face

that scene really made the episode

[Darth Pipes]

Ollie lashing out at Clark is not out-of-character with him in the comics. Arrow is featured in the Batman: Hush Returns storyline and Batman chases his enemy (Hush) into Star City. Arrow and Hush get into a confrontation before Batman arrives and a Star City cop gets killed. When he learns that Hush was an enemy of Batman, Ollie really gives him the business about not telling him ahead of time and keeping his secrets.

[Viper2369]

Obvously I haven't read every reply to this thread, but the general concensus that I have seen is totally the opposite of what I thought when I saw this scene.

It is no secret that this season they are pushing Clark towards his destiny of becoming Superman and that is what this scene was all about. It wasn't about Oliver being mad or anything.

While Oliver may not not know all of Clark's secrets and what he has been through, he does know his powers and knows what he is capable of. Oliver genuinely wants to help those in need, hence him becoming Green Arrow. Now no matter how good he is, he will never be as good as Clarke and he knows this. So it is just fustrating to him to see Clarke sit by and waste his talents on probems that fall in his lap, instead of going out and finding those that need help.

If you look back on Season 7, you will see this has been what Oliver has tried to get across to Clarke before. This episode was not the first time he laid into Clarke about standing by waiting for trouble to find him. It wasn't until the Justice League episode to where Oliver backed off. Clarke told him he genuenly wanted to be a part of it, but he had something else to take care of first. Oliver said ok, and backed off. Now here we are and Clarke is back to the "letting trouble find him" ways again. Granted he took the job at the DP to be in the middle of the action more, but that is it, he isn't out looking/listening for those in trouble.

Now, the reason Clarke has yet to become the hero we all know he is destined to be is exactly what Oliver said it was, he is scared. How many times has Clarke said he wants to protect those around him, he is scared of his friends and family getting hurt if they know his secret. He is so scared they are going to get hurt because of him, he keeps a low profile. In this episode, even Chloe laid into him about this. When he started getting concerned about what Braniac had done to her, she stopped him, because right now there is nothing he could do bout it and she told him not to blame himself.

So, to sum up, this scene was not about Oliver being spoiled, mad, or ungrateful. It was about the shows writers starting to push Clarke to his destiny of becoming Superman. He has to get that push from someone (which I am guessing Lana will be a major push later in the season) because he has demonstrated he isn't going to do it on his own.

[wolverine316]

Ollie is lucky Clark is a good man. Clark could have sneezed on that pathetic loser and broke that idiot in half. :mad: Even when Clark lost his powers and you mocked him he still did his best to find Chloe even though he couldn't defend himself with a "bow and arrow".

[Minela]

I voted none of the above. None of the options were really "serious options". Especially since that scene was really great and a good look at some hidden sides in both Ollie and Clark.

[FlashInSV]

Oliver is a jerk.

Not really.

Someone poisoned him, aiming to kill him. Every memory of Tess and himself on that island (and whatever else happened between him and Tess that they didn't show us), came rushing back to him, when he obviously wanted to forget that. He was presented with solid proof that his suspicions of Lionel Luthor murdering his parents were correct all along and to top it all, his friend Clark, whom he has helped and supported many times, was witholding this information from him.
...
And he downed like, what, 5 shots of an unidentified brownish substance -pure alcohol I'm guessing.

All in all, not an easy night for Ollie.

So, yeah, I think he has every right to be pissed off.:p

[yaseen101]

I will never watch an episode written by Caroline Dries again. Like someone said we are running around in circles with this, let's just call it a night and we go out to get a beer or something.

[JEWCY]

LOL, the mosquito line really almost ruined it for me too. Oh noooo! The mosquitos. LMAO. Please Ollie, my family comes from a jungle with huge mosquitos the size of flies that really do practically eat you alive, and at most they are an inconvenience. LOL!

See, I think the root of this argument is that drunk Ollie essentially said he was better than Clark and has really suffered and been put to the test. We, as the viewers, know the real truth that Ollie doesn't. Clark has suffered a lot over the years. That's why a part of me still doesn't believe Ollie knows Clark is an alien. If Ollie did really know, then I don't think he'd be so quick to judge. Clark does have a reason not to be so trusting. How many times has he been betrayed? How much has he lost? His family? His whole race?

But really, Clark had the rant coming to him. I agree with many, Clark has really stepped up this season and become more proactive, so being told he is a coward is a real slap to the face. But Clark did know Lionel murdered the Queens and didn't say anything to Ollie. If I were in Ollie's position, I'd take a swing at Clark regardless of invulnerablity or not. It was a betrayal of Ollie's trust. It was not up to Clark to judge what was best for Ollie.

On the flip side, Ollie was out of line. If he really knew how Clark had suffered, maybe he wouldn't be so quick to judge.

I really would have loved to see Clark pull up a barstool and grab a shotglass (regardless of getting drunk or not) and start explaining who he really is and what really happened to the Queens.


when was this stated?

[morrigan01]

when was this stated?

When Patrica Swann confirmed it to Clark at the end of the episode "Traveler" last season. She told Clark point blank that Lionel sabotaged Robert and Laura Queen's (Ollie's parents) plane so it would crash.

[Tebow15]

I like Ollie but I like Clark Better. Though I have to say sometimes he is right regarding with Clark.

[Mischael12]

Its slightly understandable, but however Clark has changed. I think really is that Oliver was supposed to be the voice of the people.

[kal-el_Girl]

Oliver is a good person. He's just angry.

of course he's angry!! I would be too if the person that killed my parents was dead, I would've wanted to kill that sob myself!!! and yes, he's probably more strong than clark, he survived two years in that island and w/o powers ok! :p

[cksidekick]

Obvously I haven't read every reply to this thread, but the general concensus that I have seen is totally the opposite of what I thought when I saw this scene.

It is no secret that this season they are pushing Clark towards his destiny of becoming Superman and that is what this scene was all about. It wasn't about Oliver being mad or anything.

While Oliver may not not know all of Clark's secrets and what he has been through, he does know his powers and knows what he is capable of. Oliver genuinely wants to help those in need, hence him becoming Green Arrow. Now no matter how good he is, he will never be as good as Clarke and he knows this. So it is just fustrating to him to see Clarke sit by and waste his talents on probems that fall in his lap, instead of going out and finding those that need help.

If you look back on Season 7, you will see this has been what Oliver has tried to get across to Clarke before. This episode was not the first time he laid into Clarke about standing by waiting for trouble to find him. It wasn't until the Justice League episode to where Oliver backed off. Clarke told him he genuenly wanted to be a part of it, but he had something else to take care of first. Oliver said ok, and backed off. Now here we are and Clarke is back to the "letting trouble find him" ways again. Granted he took the job at the DP to be in the middle of the action more, but that is it, he isn't out looking/listening for those in trouble.

Now, the reason Clarke has yet to become the hero we all know he is destined to be is exactly what Oliver said it was, he is scared. How many times has Clarke said he wants to protect those around him, he is scared of his friends and family getting hurt if they know his secret. He is so scared they are going to get hurt because of him, he keeps a low profile. In this episode, even Chloe laid into him about this. When he started getting concerned about what Braniac had done to her, she stopped him, because right now there is nothing he could do bout it and she told him not to blame himself.

So, to sum up, this scene was not about Oliver being spoiled, mad, or ungrateful. It was about the shows writers starting to push Clarke to his destiny of becoming Superman. He has to get that push from someone (which I am guessing Lana will be a major push later in the season) because he has demonstrated he isn't going to do it on his own.


i agree with every word...:\

[Mad Madam Mimm]

I really liked the scene, but I wish there'd been more to it. Once Ollie tore into Clark, rather than "punching him out" (not a very Clark-like thing to do, I think), I wish Clark had grabbed him firmly and walked him out into the hallway, or into a side room or something, and set him straight. Ollie would think Clark wants to fight him, and Clark shoves him into a chair and says, "Just listen to me, all right? yeah, I knew about it, but I had no proof, and I wasn't going to send you off without proof. maybe you wouldn't have killed lionel like you say, but the Ollie i'm looking at right now, I'm not so sure he'd have that same restraint. I'm sorry I didn't tell you before; maybe I should have. But the reason they were murdered had as much to do with me as anyone. Your parents knew about me--they knew a "traveller" was coming, and your father swore to help Virgil Swann protect that traveller from Lionel's control. And Lionel killed him for it. Your parents died for trying to protect me. And I won't ever forget that."

Umm... so when do you start your day job writing for the show? What I just read beats the hell out of "I was eaten alive by mosquitoes!" I would have LOVED to see Clark do that. He rarely sets people straight when they are preaching at him and I wish he would. We could seriously have a whole episode devoted to Clark telling off everyone on the show who, at one point or another, has pulled an Ollie-like unleashing on him. :)

----- Added 3 Minutes later -----

Obvously I haven't read every reply to this thread, but the general concensus that I have seen is totally the opposite of what I thought when I saw this scene.

It is no secret that this season they are pushing Clark towards his destiny of becoming Superman and that is what this scene was all about. It wasn't about Oliver being mad or anything.

While Oliver may not not know all of Clark's secrets and what he has been through, he does know his powers and knows what he is capable of. Oliver genuinely wants to help those in need, hence him becoming Green Arrow. Now no matter how good he is, he will never be as good as Clarke and he knows this. So it is just fustrating to him to see Clarke sit by and waste his talents on probems that fall in his lap, instead of going out and finding those that need help.

If you look back on Season 7, you will see this has been what Oliver has tried to get across to Clarke before. This episode was not the first time he laid into Clarke about standing by waiting for trouble to find him. It wasn't until the Justice League episode to where Oliver backed off. Clarke told him he genuenly wanted to be a part of it, but he had something else to take care of first. Oliver said ok, and backed off. Now here we are and Clarke is back to the "letting trouble find him" ways again. Granted he took the job at the DP to be in the middle of the action more, but that is it, he isn't out looking/listening for those in trouble.

Now, the reason Clarke has yet to become the hero we all know he is destined to be is exactly what Oliver said it was, he is scared. How many times has Clarke said he wants to protect those around him, he is scared of his friends and family getting hurt if they know his secret. He is so scared they are going to get hurt because of him, he keeps a low profile. In this episode, even Chloe laid into him about this. When he started getting concerned about what Braniac had done to her, she stopped him, because right now there is nothing he could do bout it and she told him not to blame himself.

So, to sum up, this scene was not about Oliver being spoiled, mad, or ungrateful. It was about the shows writers starting to push Clarke to his destiny of becoming Superman. He has to get that push from someone (which I am guessing Lana will be a major push later in the season) because he has demonstrated he isn't going to do it on his own.


Very well put. I'm looking forward to reading more of your posts.

But...I still say it would be nice to see Clark stand up for himself more when people start bashing on him. Not necessarily throwing punches, but at least a fiery verbal defense would be nice! Plus it would also be an affirmation that Clark really is coming into his own and finding his 'nads. (Can you say NADS on the message board?)

[President_Luthor]

Oliver has a track record on SV of calling a spade a spade and trying ... struggling ... to push Clark towards his destiny (while all the other usual suspects coddled him 'he's not himself, etc.'). This is the make-or-break season, where Clark is going to have to claim his destiny and earn the mantle of Superman.

Ollie is right - again - in putting Clark in his place. If anyone's not going to take the 'secrets-and-lies' routine, it's the Green Arrow. He's right: Clark's island is still out there. It's this season. What he does here on will determine if he's worthy to bear that S-shield on his chest by season's end.

I would say Clark showed strength by 'not' trying to justify his secrets/lies the way he would in previous seasons. He said nothing as Ollie let him have it. Why? Ollie may have been drunk, but Clark barely protested because he acknowledged that what Ollie was saying was true.

No more 'oh, there's always next season' or 'Clark's still a kid' or 'he's young, he'll grow out of it'. What washed as a reason in S2 just won't fly in S8. That time that he was supposed to "grow out" of it -- well, that time's come and Ollie's just saying it's time to step out of the dugout and get on-deck, Clark.

Great episode, BTW, and Ollie's presence in this episode more than justified his right to be there to see Clark claim his destiny by series' end.

[RedKRules]

I think Olliver said the things Clark needed to hear!

[susangail]

I think Olliver said the things Clark needed to hear!

Agreed. Ollie's always been a wise cracker, but the fact that Ollie's drowning his sorrows in a bar really makes me wonder if we'll see the beginning of the end of Oliver Queen this season. His comic incarnation is a royal jerk and a half, on top of being a substance abuser and womanizer. Oh yeah, I just re-watched "Rage" on DVD last night :)

[Superboy2]

Ollie probably has no clue about Veritas, and he may have forgotten that he and Lex were friends at one point when they were friends, cause later on he bullied Lex. Also, I'm guessing Clark will eventually tell Ollie about Veritas and what not.

[Nerial]

I think Ollie had a point, but he exaggerated it a bit.

Clark has risked his life and risked exposing his secret to the world a number of times. There are issues Ollie is completely ignorant of. Clark isn't afraid of everything--he's afraid of one BIG thing--the world finding out he's an alien.

But, Clark can't really do what is needed in darkness, so this fear hinders him badly.

Nonetheless, Ollie isn't being entirely fair. Having some guy dressed in a green costume shooting arrows will make headlines, but a super-powered alien (mask or no) will become international news. Ollie's fame will never compare to Clark's. Ollie can't know what that's like.

[Darth Pipes]

I thought he was out of line saying Clark has never sacrificed anything. He has sacrificed and he has suffered.

[svtwamedfan05]

i do too. and you know what as much as i love clark he really needed to hear that. so now all he has to do is find the crystal, re-instate the fortress and begin his training.

Totally agree

[Bizarrolover]

Douglas Trumble's review on Superman's homepage has an excellent point of view of this scene. Here's his interpretation


Speaking of good friends, I was also impressed by Clark at the end. Oliver was really upset when Tess dropped the bomb on him about his parents and totally laid into Clark about it. Oliver's reaction was understandable but we know he was being a bit too harsh on Clark. Clarks' only knowledge of the matter was a comment made to him by Patricia Swann. Something Clark never saw the evidence for. He never really knew for sure if it was true and to be perfectly honest; there really was never time since then to talk to Oliver about it. Clark went on his "vacation" to Russia right after all that went down and for all we know it's only been a week or two since his return. It's not something you just call up and tell someone. You need the time to talk. Lady Lex just beat him to it and Clark had to face Oliver's wrath. That is what impressed me the most. Clark didn't say anything. He just took it like a Superman and let his friend rage. Why? Because Oliver needed that and Clark did what he had to do. Nice.

[SteveS]

Some secrets, like ClarkMan's abilities and later on his real self, need to be kept secret. However, if one knows the truth of who murdered the parents of one's friend, then that is a secret that should be shared with the friend. However, Ollie had been drinking and can be excused, especially if he is told that ClarkMan saved his life.

[kryptonaidxh]

At least Ollie doesn`t hide in a farm without doing absolutely Nothing to help the world, Olliver is really a hero, he doesn`t just help the people he cares about, he worries for the world`s good and he takes actions to help:D, that`s what Clark should learn from Ollie instead complaining all the time ad keep acting like a teenager.

[Stu.Kent]

im getting tired of ollie's constant lectures, he's like an old woman. im beginning to think that pointing out other people's flaws may be his secret super power. clark does't have to take that from him, he shud remind ollie that he could crush his puny human skull like a walnut before he could say emerald archer. ollie needs to get off his high horse already what makes him so great anyway? coz he puts on a silly green suit when saves a measly few people while clark is protecting the entire world from super powered alien criminals. if i was clark i would've pulled ollie off that bar stool and thrown his arrogant, green ass into the sun.

[cksidekick]

exactly the opposite of what Superman would actualy do...

[All about Clark]

My interpretation of Oliver's rampage was more about Clark not confiding in Ollie. Oliver wants to be his friend, to be in the know, and clearly there is much that Clark doesn't share with Oliver, and I understand that gets Oliver steamed. I think Oliver just took it too far by saying that Clark wasn't tested, because clearly he doesn't know what Clark has been through. If Oliver knew about the PZ or about the zoners and Clark's temperary imprisonment in the PZ, he would never have spoke to Clark in that way. This was a fight about friends not sharing, and in that, Oliver was 100% right. The problem lies in that whenever Clark does share info, it comes back at him, such as Clark's fear of becoming who is father wanted from him. Clark is literally in a no-win scenario on this, if he talks, Oliver would just be more uncomfortable with the dangers in the world. If he doesn't he has Oliver on his back.

[Estro-gen X]

im getting tired of ollie's constant lectures, he's like an old woman. im beginning to think that pointing out other people's flaws may be his secret super power. clark does't have to take that from him, he shud remind ollie that he could crush his puny human skull like a walnut before he could say emerald archer. ollie needs to get off his high horse already what makes him so great anyway? coz he puts on a silly green suit when saves a measly few people while clark is protecting the entire world from super powered alien criminals. if i was clark i would've pulled ollie off that bar stool and thrown his arrogant, green ass into the sun.

This is why Ollie is so awesome and addresses most of your concerns
[Mod Edit, Link Removed]
Its easy when you have tremendous power to save worlds knowing you won't get hurt. Being powerless and beating a mugger with a knife could be an even greater acheivement because of what is at risk. Superman fights knowing he's invulnerable. Ollie doesn't have that. He doesn't even have batman's armour. What makes superman so great? He puts on a silly blue suit (with his underwear outside) and gets into almighty brawls with people like atlas which leads to mass damage of public property. Power doesn't make a hero.

[kryptonian13]

Oliver was a little harsh but he was drunk soooooooooo...................and i do agree that Clark has been through a lot...probably more than Oliver.

[Bizarrolover]

Even powerless and completely vulnerable, Clark still tries to save the day. The proof of that is the arrow that crossed his heart (shot by the same Ollie that is accusing him of being a coward) only two episodes ago.

[Myrddin]

What I love about Ollie is that he says things to Clark that no one else does - part because he is angry and part because he is jealous and part because he is right. And part because he just does not get it.

Ollie never seems to know the whole story. Like Veritas. All the crap Clark has gone through with Jor-El. With Zod. On the Phantom Zone. Or when he was on Clark's case about not doing enough when Clark was out there the whole time going after all the Zoners. The one time Ollie did seem to get it was when he said that Clark woul dnever kill anyone or that he would never give up on them.

So I love the slight tension in their relationship and Clark needs Ollie. But I also want to sometimes slap Ollie because sometimes he talks without knowing what he is talking about.

But I am glad he is there. I always loved the Clark/Ollie dynamic.

[loliverlover]

i actually justify ollie for what he said, not that i would do the the same thing but the again i'm not ollie. My point is he wasn't saying anything against clark until he found out clark already knew about his parents death i mean he was telling him he was not in the mood for a pep talk (obviously) but hadn't lectured him, but when he found out clark knew you could see he was hurting. when clark's excuse of not telling him was because he was afraid he would've killed lionel ollie then said he was afraid of everything but only said it because he thought clark's was a lame excuse, so i completely get him and back him up, clark totally deserved that for thinking ollie would've been capable of killing lionel

[Bizarrolover]

I also think Clark's excuse was really lame (I blame the writers for that) because Clark found out about the Queen's death in 'Traveler' and Lionel was killed soon after that. So there was not much time to go to Ollie and discuss the matter without rushing things. Seriously, you just can't go to your friend and tell him who killed his parents when you have absolutely no proof of it, just because Patricia Swann said. She was a nice woman, but Clark knew her only for one day. Why should he believe everything she said? If she had that evidence, why didn't she go to Ollie herself? She knew him since they were kids. She knew who killed his parents and she didn't do anything about it? Or why didn't she go to the police? Was her greed for the traveler so grand that she allowed Lionel to get away with murder?

Also, let's not forget that Clark was quite busy dealing with Braniac and Lana going catatonic (Veritas) to worry about Ollie's parents back then. A few days later, Lionel is murdered (Descent), so basically, there is nothing Ollie could do but just spit on his tomb, if that makes him feel better. There is no reason why Clark should be afraid of Ollie doing something reckless, like killing lionel. I think the writers just forgot about that little detail. Clark should have said the truth, apologize, justify his actions by saying something like 'Lana went into an alien induced coma and that really slipped my mind' or just remain silent and allow his friend to vent his anger for his parent's death on him.

BTW, Clark looked incredibly handsome in that scene.

[seara]

Also, let's not forget that Clark was quite busy dealing with Braniac and Lana going catatonic (Veritas) to worry about Ollie's parents back then.

Maybe in the future the issue will be brought up again, and Clark and Oliver will have to deal with that.

[Mischael12]

Actually what made Superman awesome was his restraint. True he fights knowing he won't get hurt. But he also fights knowing that he can hurt the person attacking him, and he doesn't flaunt his powers, he goes out his way to make the fight as painless to the other individual as possible. He also spares their pride.

[rconner]

Oliver is a jerk.

I don't think Oliver is a jerk,,,,he's giving Clark a wake up call.

[Myrddin]

We need a red-K Clark to tell Ollie a few things...

[Stu.Kent]

^^exactly and maybe rough him up a bit

[Richs]

Ollie was right to say what he said, yes he may have been a smidge drunk and could gone about it in a better way, but he's only trying to ***** slap Clark into realising who he needs to become. Hopefully Clark will realise this sooner rather than later and find his island!

[wolverine316]

^^exactly and maybe rough him up a bit

I would prefer tossing his ass into the sun.:)

[cksidekick]

We need a red-K Clark to tell Ollie a few things...

^^exactly and maybe rough him up a bit

I would prefer tossing his ass into the sun.:)


do you guys actually LIKE Superman? if you do, why would you want him to act like the Anti-Superman? it goes against everything the guy stands for... :\

[mega100]

:lol: I feel for you. Seeing how much the squeeters terrorized Ollie, I'll never take their bites lightly again. :p

getting bit by one or two... ok, funny haha. but if you think about it... ollie slept every night out in the open, where he was a feeding frenzy for probably hundreds of mosquitos. now imagine being covered in hundreds of itchy, inflamed mosquito bites.

Read up about what mosquito saliva does or can do to your immune system, and about the 700 million people they pass disease to annually.

mosquitos are no joke! :p

[Stu.Kent]

do you guys actually LIKE Superman? if you do, why would you want him to act like the Anti-Superman? it goes against everything the guy stands for... :\

1st off: sarcasm

Secondly we all like to see people act out of character now and again, that why people enjoy red k clark. just because we like clark and the way he acts doesn't mean we like seeing him getting worked all over like some kind of punk

[cksidekick]

im getting tired of ollie's constant lectures, he's like an old woman. im beginning to think that pointing out other people's flaws may be his secret super power. clark does't have to take that from him, he shud remind ollie that he could crush his puny human skull like a walnut before he could say emerald archer. ollie needs to get off his high horse already what makes him so great anyway? coz he puts on a silly green suit when saves a measly few people while clark is protecting the entire world from super powered alien criminals. if i was clark i would've pulled ollie off that bar stool and thrown his arrogant, green ass into the sun.

1st off: sarcasm

Secondly we all like to see people act out of character now and again, that why people enjoy red k clark. just because we like clark and the way he acts doesn't mean we like seeing him getting worked all over like some kind of punk



umm, 1st off, you don't know what you are talking about...;) i don't DO sarcasm...it rarely comes across effectively in print anyway...it was an honest question...


your first statement has NOTHING to do with an out of character moment, red K, or anything else...it was a rant against Oliver and as YOU stated:

"if i was clark i would've pulled ollie off that bar stool and thrown his arrogant, green ass into the sun."

you can try to sell that to me as you wishing for a "Red K moment" if you like, but i'm not buying it...like i said, i think you were just ranting about your dislike of Oliver's behavior...but in the process you would bring Supes down to a level he would never reduce himself to...

[Stu.Kent]

woah someone's antsy. ok you asked a question so i answered it as best i could, apparently that angers you? it was just a flippant comment it seems your over analysing things, also i never said i was wishing for a "Red K moment", you might wanna go back and look at what i actually said, it was merely my take on why people might say how they would've wanted clark to react. i would also say if i were a writer on the show i would not have had clark react any differently in this scene, it was the clark we all know and love, however it is not pleasant to see a character you like be treated in such a way.Also I personally do Do saracasm and I want be changing that based on how you interpet people's posts. Apologies for any infered offence you may of taken but it was all taken out of context i can assure you, i was merely sharing my thoughts and opinions and did not expect such a rash response such as you have given.

[cksidekick]

do you guys actually LIKE Superman? if you do, why would you want him to act like the Anti-Superman? it goes against everything the guy stands for... :\

1st off: sarcasm

Secondly we all like to see people act out of character now and again, that why people enjoy red k clark. just because we like clark and the way he acts doesn't mean we like seeing him getting worked all over like some kind of punk

woah someone's antsy. ok you asked a question so i answered it as best i could, apparently that angers you? it was just a flippant comment it seems your over analysing things, also i never said i was wishing for a "Red K moment", you might wanna go back and look at what i actually said, it was merely my take on why people might say how they would've wanted clark to react. i would also say if i were a writer on the show i would not have had clark react any differently in this scene, it was the clark we all know and love, however it is not pleasant to see a character you like be treated in such a way.Also I personally do Do saracasm and I want be changing that based on how you interpet people's posts. Apologies for any infered offence you may of taken but it was all taken out of context i can assure you, i was merely sharing my thoughts and opinions and did not expect such a rash response such as you have given.



Ah! it WAS a misunderstanding...;)

you have 60 posts...i don't know if you are a Superman fan...i understand now that you were being sarcastic in your post about roughing up Oliver...I, at first took it that you thought I was the one being sarcastic when i asked you about your being a Superman fan...:p...it realy was an honest question...

no need for apologies...in fact you have mine...your opinion is your opinion even if you hate Superman...

[Stu.Kent]

I don't hate Superman and I'll leave it at that