XRayVision - Some Friendly Advice

[MBrittan]

XRay,
Lighten up a little bit. You're being waaay too analytical with regard to the inconsistencies of Smallville. It's a television show, meant to entertain. To read some of your reactions, you would think Smallville some some kind of homework assignment for you. Given the vigor with which you tore apart the episode "Quest", it's hard to even imagine why you even bother watching a show you sound like you hate. I was just going to comment on how much I enjoyed Quest. I really like those shows/movies with a treasure-hunting theme to them. With clues, relics/artifacts which lead to a treasure or revelation. I thought the three stones of knowledge from season 4 was brilliant (especially how clever the map leading to the air stone was - how it was actually a tree, not a river). I thought the cryptograph idea was really clever. I thought the fact that the "key" to controlling Clark was right under Lex's nose for the entire 7 years was REALLY clever. I've recently gone back to watch previous seasons of Smallville on DVD (paying particular attention to scenes which take place in that room of the Luthor mansion) and I've even caught myself pausing and "zooming in" on the fireplace and to my surprise, the clockmaker's logo was always there! It wasn't something they added just for the sake of the Veritas storyline. I thought Quest was the best of season 7 and maybe one of the best of the entire season (I also enjoyed Run, Justice, and Sacred). So just a bit of friendly advice. Relax. Enjoy the show. Resist the urge to "nit pick" every little thing.
-M-

[xrayvision]

Yeah, I know the logo was always there. The symbol was retconned into the story though, otherwise they wouldn't have all these inconsistencies had this been planned all along.

It just bothers me that a show I liked so much has been torn apart by such bad writing. They keep trashing Clark and tearing down the character that had been carefully built up during the early years.

Sometimes it seems like they're insulting us and think that we won't remember their previous explanations. I seriously hope the new powers that be are much better than Al/Miles.

I'm not sure if you saw Arctic yet, but that episode really was a letdown for many longtime fans of the show who had been waiting to see how Clark & Lex would end up.

[Imzadia]

:)I agree with what you're trying to say to "xrayvision","MBrittan" . He doesn't seem to be hearing you, though. It IS the entertainment 'factor' we should be concerning ourselves with afterall. Any fictional story that interests me, whether I read it in a book or watch it as a movie or on TV, I do it to be entertained. If it begins to ANNOY me, I leave it alone.:rolleyes: :)I expressed my feelings on a similar topic in another 'thread'. So, I'd like to say it again here hoping to 'bridge a gap', so to speak.

I only learned about the 'Details' of every episode and story arc from the beginning of the series after watching it on DVD. I only started Faithfully watching Smallville half way through the 5th Season. I fell in LOVE with it! So, I had to play 'Catch-Up' with the seasons on DVDs. I had a 'Crash Course' in Smallville. It was quite an adventure. It was an emotional roller-coaster and I was Thrilled to ride it. I'm now TOTALLY emotionally Invested in this series. I don't think I could ever abandon it. It may disappoint now and again, but it also continues to surprise me. :p

:)IMHO, the series has continued to grow and IMPROVE while it builds a more solid origin story for Superman. I once read the Superman comics, but only after I'd seen the first Superman movie. Clark Kent became more humanized and accessible emotionally as a fictional character. I cared about him for the first time. Whereas before, he was too stoic and TOO Powerful. When I saw he had vulnerabilities like the rest of us, but moreso, as well as how his parents had raised him, Clark became a 'sweetheart', and I understood his devotion to protecting Humanity, but that could not have been an easy decision even with all of his power. His 'journey' in Smallville has shown me/us this several times over. All of the hardships, mistakes, obstacles, and sacrifices Clark had to endure are the life-lessons that equipped him with the ability to be Well-Balanced as Superman.

He experiences Failure even as Superman, but he had to have an ever-present Reason to keep going no matter what. His 'super' abilities set him apart, but his values and integrity centered in the core of his being is what made him extra-special above all the rest. Clark becomes an 'Iconic' superhero who seems 'PERFECT' through and through. Smallville has been showing us that he's NOT, but got put on that pedestal by learning to make choices that, eventually, became a part of who he was. So, All of that has made the series something I'll faithfully and anxiously look forward to seeing as long as it's on the air.

On Smallville, Yes, Clark still has some Major Steps to make before he gets to the point of being ready to drape himself in Superman's cape, but Season 8 should give him the time. Some of the major characters that have been a part of his life since the beginning of the series have grown up, just as he has, and Must leave so that he can move forward. In particular, his childhood sweetheart, Lana Lang, has served her purpose in his life and she will not be an integral part of his Adult life, so it's time for her to say 'good-bye'. Lex absolutely became his archenemy and his most frequent sparring partner, but he was Not a Constant presence in his everyday life, and neither was Kara. Of course, I think his mom should always be there and accessible to him when he needs her. Again, IMO, they're still pretty much 'on track' with the story they're trying to tell. I only hope TPTB will do him justice and do it well up until the time the series ends.

Thanks for giving me the opportunity to share my feelings about Smallville to any 'naysayers' during this critical time. I'M Still being 'Entertained'. I KNEW I couldn't have been the only person who still sees this series as a success. I feel so much better now. :D

[MBrittan]

There is such a thing as "suspending disbelief" in movies and television. Story-telling isn't always going to be 100% without error. With regard to the Veritas storyline, I thought it was an intriguing way of tying up a series of "loose ends" with regard to the guest stars on the show over the past several seasons (just as "Justice" was helpful in bringing together the various super heroes that had popped up). Season 3 introduced Virgil Swan. Season 4 introduced the Teagues. Season 6 introduced the Queens. All three families were wealthy and extremely powerful in their own way. Together with the Luthors, one trait they all share is curiosity. It makes sense that they'd be interested in learning all they could about extraterrestrial life, especially since they had the resources (money) to dedicate to that end. As is common in situations where powerful entities are all after the same thing, they sometimes combine their efforts. Better to ensure you don't get "cut out" of the big prize, even if it means you have to share whatever it turns out to be. Surprised you didn't see a Swann/Teague/Queen/Luthor alliance coming? Don't be. That's one thing that CAN be easily explained. It's a secret society. You're not SUPPOSED to be aware of it. It isn't how the members interact with each other publicly that's important. It's how they interact privately. Public displays of animosity can, in fact, be done intentionally to throw off suspicion. And even though each of the member families are supposed to be working together as part of Veritas, it doesn't mean they don't each have their own separate agendas. There's always going to be that Alpha Dog who wants to take control of every situation (in this case, Lionel Luthor). Anyway, I'm starting to ramble so I'll stop. But I guess what I'm trying to say is that I don't think the Veritas storyline was all that far-fetched at all.
-M-

[xrayvision]

But in this case, it's not even close to 100% without error. There are tons of errors and plenty of questions that have come up and never answered.

See, I'm also a fan of Supernatural, and IMO the writers of that show are doing a spectacular job. The continuity is great and the episodes are coherent without leaving important questions to be answered. I felt the same about the first 3 seasons of Smallville. The writing was superb, Clark was comparable to his comic book counterpart, and the progression of each season was great.

Season 1 started out with Clark finding out he was an alien, saving Lex, and battling all sorts of freaks. It also had Lex as of X-Ray speaking to Roger Nixon and having him investigate--something that came back at the end of the season when Nixon spied on the Kents. It also started with Lex and his disdain for his father and trying to prove himself to Lionel. It ended with Lionel firing everyone to get Lex to move back to Metropolis (hence that power struggle thing between the 2).

Season 2 started out with Clark's ship being lost and Pete finding it and his secret and Dr. Hamilton finding the ship and showing it to a blind Lionel. From there Lionel took a deep interest in Clark and the stuff with the caves happened and Clark met Swann. The season ended with Lionel taking the caves from Lex and trying to make his own key to find its secrets. The mythos elements of the cave and Clark's ship and Swann were continuously flowing throughout the season and in the end Clark's learning of the Kryptonian language led to him being considered "of age" by Jor-El to begin his quest for the stones.

Season 3 started with Clark in Metropolis under the influence of red-k after making a mistake and blowing up his ship, which caused Martha to miscarry. Jonathan made a deal with Jor-El and this deal kept resonating throughout the season (in Hereafter when Jonathan had a heart attack, in Resurrection when he had heart surgery, in Legacy when Jor-El told him he was waiting, and in Covenant when Jor-El had enough of waiting and sent Lindsay Harrison as Kara). Lex's insanity seen in Exile flowed throughout the season and climaxed in Shattered & Asylum. Immediately resulting from that was Lex's thirst to acquire his lost memories, which continued in the 2nd half of the season. The vial of Clark's blood in Exile and Phoenix also was a recurring theme in Resurrection, Crisis and several other episodes. So was Lionel's continuing interest in Clark and the caves. Chloe's arrangement with Lionel was another big plot.

Season 7 didn't have such a good flow. We got Bizarro (who was a great villian), who then just disappeared until Gemini. We then got a Julian clone arc that just led to nowhere (killed by Lex and no follow-up by Lionel, Lois, Clark or Chloe for facts). The same happened after Lionel's death. We had an interesting character with Dr. Knox, but never saw him again either. We also had interesting tidbits of life on Krypton in Kara and Lara that culminated into the events in Blue. But this had nothing to do with the Veritas storyline that permeated the last 7 episodes. There was no Julian in those last episodes, no Zor-El, no Lara, no Curtis Knox, and not enough Brainiac as there should have been. The season had too many things going on and they didn't come together. And it left too many unanswered questions that could have been avoided had they used something else other than Veritas.

None of the other shows I watch have this problem. House is a show that's brilliantly written. I also like Supernatural's writing. As much as I disliked most of season 6, I didn't think it did as bad a job of being a coherent season. I blame it mainly on the Veritas retcon. And I'm unsatisfied that a character I loved throughout my life (Superman/Clark Kent) is so ignorant, pathetic and even disrespectful with only a season left until he supposedly becomes Superman.

I can understand Clark making mistakes as long as he's trying like he did in Shattered when he did everything in his power to try to save Lex from being mind-zapped. But Clark now just lets the world go to hell and tries to save it after it's too late. He needs reassurance from Chloe to go and act. This is after Jonathan died, after Lionel died, after he was trapped in the Phantom Zone, after Lana was put into that comatose state, after Zor-El nearly killed him, after Brainiac went back in time to try to kill him, etc. We were promised Clark's training as soon as the last phantom was killed. That officially happened in Persona and we haven't seen any training.

I guess I'm just an optimist, waiting for things to turn around and become good again (which I thought would have been this season). Just like I watch the Knicks knowing that they're horrible and suck and will keep losing, but that they will eventually turn things around. I'm hoping the same for the show that I spent too much time watching and posting about.

[The Great Ymmij]

You have good points xrayvision. The only thing I would disagree with besides the fact that I enjoyed the Veritas storyline is that Clark did start his "training" after the last phantom was destroyed. Jor-El told him that taking care of Kara was part of his training, and he's been trying to do that all season.

[xrayvision]

I actually enjoyed the beginning of the Veritas storyline. But once time traveling was involved (causing new entries in Swann's journal) and all sorts of questions went unanswered, I thought of it as a mistake. They ignored all sorts of things like explaining that Jor-El sent Swann several more messages that would have surely popped up in Clark's conversation with Swann in Rosetta or at least offscreen in their emails. Even Krypton's destruction was retconned within the same season!!! From an explanation of war being the cause in the early part of the season to a natural disaster (the red sun exploding) in Apocalypse. I even wrote a theory I based off my fanfic Krypton to explain that one.

[MBrittan]

I actually enjoyed the beginning of the Veritas storyline. But once time traveling was involved (causing new entries in Swann's journal) and all sorts of questions went unanswered, I thought of it as a mistake. They ignored all sorts of things like explaining that Jor-El sent Swann several more messages that would have surely popped up in Clark's conversation with Swann in Rosetta or at least offscreen in their emails. Even Krypton's destruction was retconned within the same season!!! From an explanation of war being the cause in the early part of the season to a natural disaster (the red sun exploding) in Apocalypse. I even wrote a theory I based off my fanfic Krypton to explain that one.


I don't have a problem believing that Swann wouldn't reveal everything Jor-el sent him. At first, Swann didn't even know how Clark was going to react to him. He could have shut him out completely. It makes sense that he wouldn't want to give it to Clark all at once. "Your birth father sent a message which I've intercepted and oh, by the way, Brainiac is going to try to kill you before you come to earth four years from now". How well do you think THAT would have been received? As Clark's protector (in a sense), it was Swann's responsibility to A) Gain his confidence; and B) get involved ONLY if and when the situation warranted. You're probably going to say, "Why didn't he tell Clark before he died then?" If you believe that Lionel murdered Swann, he obviously wouldn't have had the chance.
-M-

[xrayvision]

My question is why would Jor-El reveal such information--especially how most of it was so dangerous? I understand that he wanted people on Earth to deliver his son from evil and why he would send that first message. But it went against Jor-El's nature of not wanting to involve humans to reveal so much information.

The only way that this can be turned around to make sense is if Swann is given far more importance than he's been given so far. And I even provided an excellent way for this to happen:

http://www.kryptonsite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=89821

This could have been done earlier (like in the beginning of the season) to avoid more conflict problems. This theory stems from one of the fanfic episodes I wrote where I gave the same explanation of Swann:

http://www.kryptonsite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=76369

So having all those messages sent to Swann is actually something they can redeem/explain if they explain Apocalypse as Clark saving Swann, and it would also explain the intra-season retcon of Krypton's destruction.

[MBrittan]

My question is why would Jor-El reveal such information--especially how most of it was so dangerous? I understand that he wanted people on Earth to deliver his son from evil and why he would send that first message. But it went against Jor-El's nature of not wanting to involve humans to reveal so much information.

The only way that this can be turned around to make sense is if Swann is given far more importance than he's been given so far. And I even provided an excellent way for this to happen:

http://www.kryptonsite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=89821

This could have been done earlier (like in the beginning of the season) to avoid more conflict problems. This theory stems from one of the fanfic episodes I wrote where I gave the same explanation of Swann:

http://www.kryptonsite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=76369

So having all those messages sent to Swann is actually something they can redeem/explain if they explain Apocalypse as Clark saving Swann, and it would also explain the intra-season retcon of Krypton's destruction.

Let me put it to you this way. If Jor-el could pinpoint which family would "find" his son and raise him, is it really all that hard to believe he could direct his transmissions to one particular human? In fact, if Jor-el decided that the Kents would be the family to raise his son as early as the 50s (when he met Hiram Kent), is it really all that hard to believe he could have learned about Swann on that same visit? Just some food for thought.
-M-

[xrayvision]

Let me put it to you this way. If Jor-el could pinpoint which family would "find" his son and raise him, is it really all that hard to believe he could direct his transmissions to one particular human? In fact, if Jor-el decided that the Kents would be the family to raise his son as early as the 50s (when he met Hiram Kent), is it really all that hard to believe he could have learned about Swann on that same visit? Just some food for thought.
-M-

Well it wouldn't have happened in the 50's since Swann was either a very young kid or wasn't born yet. Plus, Swann was in New York. All of Jor-El's business has been in Kansas---Smallville, Kansas. And I'm pretty sure after his Relic visit that his next visits all took place in the cave.

Look, all they needed to do was have one scene in which a young Swann (of the age just before he decided to give his company away as Chloe said in Rosetta) passes by Jor-El and sees something that he knows is alien about him (probably his powers, technology, or Kryptonian writing) just so they have that as his inspiration to go looking for messages in space. They could have had a different actor (one who looks like Christopher Reeve) play Swann and it would have been very convincing and tied up the entire Swann arc. I've been asking for something like this for a very long time. Something that explained why Swann ended up with the key in Legacy. I always thought there was something more between him and Jor-El (which is why I explained Swann as being Kal-El-2 in my fanfic). They couldn't have one damn scene with them the entire season to bring that to a close.

Here is a thread that I posted quite a while ago asking for something like this:

http://www.kryptonsite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65243

It makes me cringe how they wasted time with episodes like Fierce, Blue, Wrath, Sleeper, etc and didn't have one scene containing what I explained above. Clark was not even interested enough to ask Jor-El questions about Krypton's demise (about Zod's role, Zor-El's role, Brainiac's conversion, the experimentation of the Bizarro phantom, etc). Fans of comic books like myself want explanations to things, not unexplained holes throughout the series that have to be filled with unofficial theories at best. Since the main character of this show is based off a comic book character, I expect important questions would be answered. If they don't want to answer them, then they should have chosen something else as the subject matter of the show. Can you imagine if things like Krypton's demise or Bizarro's origin were treated the same way in the comics that they have in this show? Fans would be pissed and readership would drop.

The show clearly has a limited amount of time to show everything. Since that's the case, the people in charge have to do a better job at showing necessary things (related to Clark & Krypton) vs. unnecessary things (Lana getting Clark's powers, supermodels showing up in town trying to steal money, etc).

[Theshadow129x]

i agree with Xrayvision to be honest. the thing is that since the beginning of the series they've said they always knew where the story is going and that from al/miles standpoint everything would be wrapped up at the end so there wouldnt be plot holes. they did that with veritas but it failed at this. Veritas left more questions to it. To say Lionel was in Smallville the day of the meteor shower for the traveler wasnt true because as season 2 has shown he didnt know about aliens in smallville until hamilton brought it to his attention. thats when he started digging. also they say he knew all along about krypton and all that crap but season 3 showed that he was eager to find out where Clark was and what he could do. those are huge plot holes and it all just doesnt fit. if he wanted Clark to trust him after all those years then why did he almost kill him after all those years? its just really dumb. i feel 100% the same as Xrayvision. i personally think they came up with the veritas storyline after they watched heroes. lol im just saying.

[xrayvision]

^^Lionel knowing that Clark would arrive the day he did is probably one of the biggest questions they left unanswered. If he knew the Traveler would show up that day, why bring Lex with him? He did neglect Lex for the Traveler as Lex's memories showed, but he didn't hate Lex to drag him into a potentially dangerous situation. A father who is obsessed with an alien traveler wouldn't bring his 9 year old son with him if he expects to meet the traveler. I don't think Lionel even knew if the traveler was a young kid (like Clark was) or a grown adult. Swann didn't even know until years after getting Jor-El's "deliver my son from evil" message when he finally decoded the message.

It's clear that Lionel didn't know of the Naman legend because he would have known about Naman coming to Earth in a rain of fire. He would have left Lex home had that been the case.

[Theshadow129x]

^ exactly. thats my point. veritas was interesting but it was hardly good or great. it just made the story more convoluted that it should have been.

[xrayvision]

I wish they would have kept the Kawatche caves set instead of keeping the clocktower set from Birds of Prey that became Ollie's place. Then they could have used the caves to continue the mythology about Clark's arrival, Kem-El's involvement (he should have been explained as the one who told the original Kawatche tribe of Naman), and the rest. They could have made changed happen in the caves as Clark progressed on with his destiny to guide him and had Lex follow the changes and become more curious with Lionel's involvement in Clark's life. That would have avoided the Traveler mess.

[Hopefulsuicide]

x-ray vision, i don't know why your even bothering to answer these people! if i were you, i would be extremely offended that someone had picked me out and tryed to patronise me by suggesting i need some 'friendly advice', and to 'lighten up a little bit'... it's rude, and it's a personal attack

i read almost all your posts and 9 times out of ten i agree with you. there are plenty of us out there. it's not homework, to some of us inconsistencies are irritating and therefore stand out... this isn't a fault or something that needs dumbing down... without criticism people don't try to better themselves... if everyone is constantly telling you your great and your not then you wont get any better

it's like those hideous pop idol auditions where they actually think they have done a good job! the fact is, no one has ever told them they aren't before, so they have continued thinking that this is what people want to hear and see... well it's not!

it's the same with smallville... the writers/directors have settled into a rhythm this season because the season has been well recieved. but they aren't working hard to improve on their stories or their writing and it's all because of people like MBrittan making people feel like they are grumpy or moany or unpleasant if they point out this faults

BS... pick the show to death, then maybe some of the bigger things will actually get better!

[Theshadow129x]

^^^ lmao so true thanks for posting that hopefulsuicide

[Spaniard]

"I much prefer the sharpest criticism of a single intelligent man to the thoughtless approval of the masses." Kepler

“Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfils the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things.” Churcill

Keep up your great posts xrayvision. I take a critic over a conformist anytime.

[MBrittan]

Look, all they needed to do was have one scene in which a young Swann (of the age just before he decided to give his company away as Chloe said in Rosetta) passes by Jor-El and sees something that he knows is alien about him (probably his powers, technology, or Kryptonian writing) just so they have that as his inspiration to go looking for messages in space. They could have had a different actor (one who looks like Christopher Reeve) play Swann and it would have been very convincing and tied up the entire Swann arc. I've been asking for something like this for a very long time.

Why is it such a bad thing to infer? If the show took the time to address every single plot hole you pointed out, they'd never have time to tell any original stories. They'd constantly be back-tracking, making sure they didn't leave anything unexplained. I think they try to explain a lot on Smallville. But I don't think it's the end of the world if they leave a few "holes" for us to fill in ourselves. Remember, this is Clark's story, not Swann's. Not Lionel's. Not Lex's. Those characters are plot devices, used to help advance Clark's story. The more time you spend in flashback scenes involving Swann and Jor-el, the less time you spend in the present telling Clark's story. I think it is enough to just accept some things as having happened "off screen". I don't think it's such a bad thing to use your imagination. Plot "holes" don't bother me as much as flat-out contradictions. Those DO require more explaining. For example, in Promise when Lionel threatened to kill Clark (if Lana didn't marry Lex) after accepting the responsibility of protecting him. That was a contradiction that demanded an explanation and they did (albeit maybe not to everyone's satisfaction).
-M-

----- Added 8 Minutes later -----

i agree with Xrayvision to be honest. the thing is that since the beginning of the series they've said they always knew where the story is going and that from al/miles standpoint everything would be wrapped up at the end so there wouldnt be plot holes. they did that with veritas but it failed at this. Veritas left more questions to it. To say Lionel was in Smallville the day of the meteor shower for the traveler wasnt true because as season 2 has shown he didnt know about aliens in smallville until hamilton brought it to his attention. thats when he started digging. also they say he knew all along about krypton and all that crap but season 3 showed that he was eager to find out where Clark was and what he could do. those are huge plot holes and it all just doesnt fit. if he wanted Clark to trust him after all those years then why did he almost kill him after all those years? its just really dumb. i feel 100% the same as Xrayvision. i personally think they came up with the veritas storyline after they watched heroes. lol im just saying.

Again, I think this is one of those situations where you have to infer. I don't think it's a stretch to assume Lionel would have come to Smallville on the day of the first meteor shower. Think about it. He had already established a relationship with Swann who had been monitoring activity in outer space. He may not have known the Traveler would arrive on that day, but he did know SOMETHING extraterrestrial in nature was happening (the meteor shower). I'm sure he did look for a ship, hoping the Traveler DID come but obviously, the Kents beat him to it. The fact that Clark looked human in appearance probably threw off suspicion as well. Only after he met Dr. Hamilton in season 2 did he revisit the idea that something else COULD have come down in that meteor shower.
-M-

----- Added 14 Minutes later -----

I wish they would have kept the Kawatche caves set instead of keeping the clocktower set from Birds of Prey that became Ollie's place. Then they could have used the caves to continue the mythology about Clark's arrival, Kem-El's involvement (he should have been explained as the one who told the original Kawatche tribe of Naman), and the rest. They could have made changed happen in the caves as Clark progressed on with his destiny to guide him and had Lex follow the changes and become more curious with Lionel's involvement in Clark's life. That would have avoided the Traveler mess.

Here we go again. What's wrong with a little mystery? Why do we have to know the name of the Kryptonian who visited the Kawatche or the date he/she visited? Does not knowing really diminish the story? On the contrary. I think it's cool that they DIDN'T give that away. It COULD have been Kem-El, but it doesn't have to be. And speaking of Kem-El, was HIS character really neccessary? Funny how you trash the show for inventing some storylines but other mysterious storylines (like Kem-El's) you embrace. Different strokes for different folks I guess.
-M-

[Theshadow129x]

People dont get storytelling. the best kind of storytelling there is, is the kind where you dont have to think because every question every loose end has been tied up. you cant simply infer or guess what happened because it wasnt on screen because if you do then all you get is speculation not actual storytelling. thats whats the problem with Smallville. it spends too much time leaving things hang and brings up new stories they forget out the stuff that are still hanging.

I cant write a book with nothnig but questions and publish it because all people will do is tear my book to shreds about plot holes and inconsistencies. Writing a tv show is no different. to write a story about a young superman isnt hard as we've seen in the earlier seasons but when you go far into the series and try to redo plot lines that were already written you get a big mess that is called season 7.

[MBrittan]

x-ray vision, i don't know why your even bothering to answer these people! if i were you, i would be extremely offended that someone had picked me out and tryed to patronise me by suggesting i need some 'friendly advice', and to 'lighten up a little bit'... it's rude, and it's a personal attack

i read almost all your posts and 9 times out of ten i agree with you. there are plenty of us out there. it's not homework, to some of us inconsistencies are irritating and therefore stand out... this isn't a fault or something that needs dumbing down... without criticism people don't try to better themselves... if everyone is constantly telling you your great and your not then you wont get any better

it's like those hideous pop idol auditions where they actually think they have done a good job! the fact is, no one has ever told them they aren't before, so they have continued thinking that this is what people want to hear and see... well it's not!

it's the same with smallville... the writers/directors have settled into a rhythm this season because the season has been well recieved. but they aren't working hard to improve on their stories or their writing and it's all because of people like MBrittan making people feel like they are grumpy or moany or unpleasant if they point out this faults

BS... pick the show to death, then maybe some of the bigger things will actually get better!

How is it a personal attack? I just told him to relax and allow himself to enjoy the show. It sounds like he's taking it way too seriously and therefore, agonizing over it instead of enjoying it. Based on my limited experience with XRay, it sounds like there's more about the show he DOESN'T like (than does). Watching the show sounds like an almost painful experience for him now. If that's the case, why even bother? Why not just move on to something more enjoyable? That's not a personal attack. It's an honest question. I've had shows I've given up on the past. I didn't agonize over it, I just stopped watching when it no longer met my expectations. I think in XRay's case he has this "ideal" he wants Smallville to be and it angers him that it's not meeting with his expectations. I've got news for you. No show is ever going to meet with everyone's approval. Even the best shows are disliked by someone. As for me making XRay "feel grumpy or moany or unpleasant if he points out Smallville's faults", what about the reverse? What about the people who like it for what it is? Aren't THEY being made to feel "grumpy or moany or unpleasant", having to read XRay's harsh criticisms of a show they enjoy? If XRay can criticize Smallville, why can't someone defend it? Is XRay infallible?
-M-

[Theshadow129x]

He's entitled to his opinion just like you are to his. dont call him out on the boards and tell him to relax. thats why we have private messaging but dont call him out and make suggestions because thats just wrong.

[MBrittan]

People dont get storytelling. the best kind of storytelling there is, is the kind where you dont have to think because every question every loose end has been tied up. you cant simply infer or guess what happened because it wasnt on screen because if you do then all you get is speculation not actual storytelling. thats whats the problem with Smallville. it spends too much time leaving things hang and brings up new stories they forget out the stuff that are still hanging.

I cant write a book with nothnig but questions and publish it because all people will do is tear my book to shreds about plot holes and inconsistencies. Writing a tv show is no different. to write a story about a young superman isnt hard as we've seen in the earlier seasons but when you go far into the series and try to redo plot lines that were already written you get a big mess that is called season 7.

I couldn't possibly disagree more. I don't like having everything spoon fed to me (as a viewer or reader). I like being made to think. I find it almost offensive when the writer of a movie or book feels like he/she has to explain every single little thing to me. It's like a knock on the audience's intelligence. One of their jobs as a storyteller is to spark your imagination. If you don't want to think, watch South Park or Family Guy. Just so long as the essence of the main characters (in this case, Clark) is maintained, I think they've done their job. If they were to suddently start having Clark ignoring people in peril or killing his enemies, THEN I think I'd start to have some problems with the show. But think of it this way. If Clark doesn't even know the answer to all of these questions, why should we? Does he know which Kryptonian visited the Kawache? Does he know what (if any) face-to-face interactions Swann may have had with Jor-el? No. But that doesn't effect the true essence of his character. I don't think it's necessary to obsess over every little "hole" you can think of. I guarantee you, if you were to create a list of 100 holes you thought Smallville had, I could think of another 25-50 that you didn't. It's impossible to fill in every hole. But that's OK.
-M-

----- Added 6 Minutes later -----

He's entitled to his opinion just like you are to his. dont call him out on the boards and tell him to relax. thats why we have private messaging but dont call him out and make suggestions because thats just wrong.

Trust me, I know how message boards work. I've been posting online for 12 years now (althought I've just recently started posting here). The purpose of a message board is for people to exchance ideas. This isn't a monologue. It's a dialogue. We don't live in a bubble. If you're going to speak out about something (in a very public way), you have to expect there are going to be people who are going to "call you out" from time-to-time. XRay sounds like an intelligent guy. I don't think he's as offended by what I said as you are (because he knows it wasn't really a personal attack at all). If he's not bothered by it, why should you be? Let him speak for himself. He seems MORE than capable of that. What kind of message are YOU sending him? That he needs you to protect him?
-M-

[Theshadow129x]

Here's the thing. if you are gonig to tell a story and tell everyone you know where the story is going and the end is going to be the same regardless then how can you change the characters mindset , their premise, their purpose, and feelings and still come out with a story that has the same ending that you originally intended? you cant! thats the thing about story telling that they tried to do in smallville. they changed all the characters around half way through and even dumbed most of them down like Clark just to keep the storytelling continue. Inconsistant storytelling at that. You might not want to be spoon fed everything but there needs to be reasoning behind every plot thats in a story. things cant just happen in storyies for the sake of things happening there needs to be action and then a reaction. cause and effect. season 7 has shown things thats are completely illogical. the finale showed me once and for all that they had no real end set in mind for Lex or the show as it just ended. you cant write a story that way. there needs to be explanations in a story. even murder mysteries have explanations and they fill in the holes. its that simple.

[MBrittan]

Here's the thing. if you are gonig to tell a story and tell everyone you know where the story is going and the end is going to be the same regardless then how can you change the characters mindset , their premise, their purpose, and feelings and still come out with a story that has the same ending that you originally intended? you cant! thats the thing about story telling that they tried to do in smallville. they changed all the characters around half way through and even dumbed most of them down like Clark just to keep the storytelling continue. Inconsistant storytelling at that. You might not want to be spoon fed everything but there needs to be reasoning behind every plot thats in a story. things cant just happen in storyies for the sake of things happening there needs to be action and then a reaction. cause and effect. season 7 has shown things thats are completely illogical. the finale showed me once and for all that they had no real end set in mind for Lex or the show as it just ended. you cant write a story that way. there needs to be explanations in a story. even murder mysteries have explanations and they fill in the holes. its that simple.

You know as well as I do where this story ends. With Clark moving to Metropolis, working at the Daily Planet, and becoming Superman. With Clark moving away from Lana and towards Lois. That's what they meant when they said they knew where the story was going. Life's a journey, not a destination. Finding out what led up to Clark becoming Superman is what's fun about Smallville. Finding out how Lex went from good to evil is what's fun about Smallville. Finding out what went wrong between Clark and Lana (when they seemed perfect for each other) is what's fun about Smallville. I think the show does a wonderful job of humanizing these characters. They're much, much deeper characters than their counterparts in the comic books. People aren't "all good" or "all bad". People are who they are because of the experiences that have shaped their lives. People become jaded (like Lex has). It doesn't happen overnight. It's a gradual process. Lex didn't start out homicidal. He slipped further and further into darkness throughout the 7 years of the show. In the beginning, Clark was basically trusting of everyone (because he didn't have a reason not to be). But throughout the show, his experiences taught him that not everyone CAN be trusted so he's more cautious of people's motives than ever before. Look at Lana. She was the ever-happy cheerleader in the beginning. Through her association with Clark (his lying about his secret) and Lex (his criminal activities), even SHE has become jaded. She's a darker character than she was at the start of Smallville. Even Chloe has grown. She was the gossip queen at the beginning of the show. Now she's a skilled reporter with mad computer hacking skills and she's a "sidekick" for Clark and his superhero friends. If she knew at the beginning of the show what she knows now, she would have plastered Clark's, Bart's, Oliver's, Victor's, and AC's faces all over the front page of the paper, outing them to the world. But she's grown up. Matured. She now realizes the wisdom of keeping some things secret. I think the show has done a much, much better job than you give it credit for.
-M-

[Hopefulsuicide]

How is it a personal attack? I just told him to relax and allow himself to enjoy the show. It sounds like he's taking it way too seriously and therefore, agonizing over it instead of enjoying it. Based on my limited experience with XRay, it sounds like there's more about the show he DOESN'T like (than does). Watching the show sounds like an almost painful experience for him now. If that's the case, why even bother? Why not just move on to something more enjoyable? That's not a personal attack. It's an honest question. I've had shows I've given up on the past. I didn't agonize over it, I just stopped watching when it no longer met my expectations. I think in XRay's case he has this "ideal" he wants Smallville to be and it angers him that it's not meeting with his expectations. I've got news for you. No show is ever going to meet with everyone's approval. Even the best shows are disliked by someone. As for me making XRay "feel grumpy or moany or unpleasant if he points out Smallville's faults", what about the reverse? What about the people who like it for what it is? Aren't THEY being made to feel "grumpy or moany or unpleasant", having to read XRay's harsh criticisms of a show they enjoy? If XRay can criticize Smallville, why can't someone defend it? Is XRay infallible?
-M-

the point is that you have singled x-ray out... and there are plenty of people that agree so i don't see why you had to direct is specifially towards him

of course you can defend the show but to make a whole thread to dispute one posters opinion is a little personal IMO

[Theshadow129x]

You know as well as I do where this story ends. With Clark moving to Metropolis, working at the Daily Planet, and becoming Superman. With Clark moving away from Lana and towards Lois. That's what they meant when they said they knew where the story was going. Life's a journey, not a destination. Finding out what led up to Clark becoming Superman is what's fun about Smallville. Finding out how Lex went from good to evil is what's fun about Smallville. Finding out what went wrong between Clark and Lana (when they seemed perfect for each other) is what's fun about Smallville. I think the show does a wonderful job of humanizing these characters. They're much, much deeper characters than their counterparts in the comic books. People aren't "all good" or "all bad". People are who they are because of the experiences that have shaped their lives. People become jaded (like Lex has). It doesn't happen overnight. It's a gradual process. Lex didn't start out homicidal. He slipped further and further into darkness throughout the 7 years of the show. In the beginning, Clark was basically trusting of everyone (because he didn't have a reason not to be). But throughout the show, his experiences taught him that not everyone CAN be trusted so he's more cautious of people's motives than ever before. Look at Lana. She was the ever-happy cheerleader in the beginning. Through her association with Clark (his lying about his secret) and Lex (his criminal activities), even SHE has become jaded. She's a darker character than she was at the start of Smallville. Even Chloe has grown. She was the gossip queen at the beginning of the show. Now she's a skilled reporter with mad computer hacking skills and she's a "sidekick" for Clark and his superhero friends. If she knew at the beginning of the show what she knows now, she would have plastered Clark's, Bart's, Oliver's, Victor's, and AC's faces all over the front page of the paper, outing them to the world. But she's grown up. Matured. She now realizes the wisdom of keeping some things secret. I think the show has done a much, much better job than you give it credit for.
-M-

okay maybe i gave a bad example but the reasons behind a characters purpose needs to make sense. sometimes the things in smallville happen just to happen with a lame ass explanation to back it up. i mean for goodness sakes Al/Miles said that they arent worried about continity they are just trying to write the next script. the thing is that when you are trying to tell a story you have to care about continuity because without that you basically arent telling a story you are just letting things happen just to let them happen. thats a problem.its just liek star wars. people loved the original trilogy. it was such a classic that you could have left them at the way they were because it answered ( at the time) all teh questions we ever needed answered.

when the prequel trilogy came along it added stuff to the story that was inconsistent with the explanations that were given in the original trilogy that people said the story telling simply became an after thought and it became more of a cash cow to draw upon the success of the original in the series.

[xrayvision]

Why is it such a bad thing to infer? If the show took the time to address every single plot hole you pointed out, they'd never have time to tell any original stories. They'd constantly be back-tracking, making sure they didn't leave anything unexplained. I think they try to explain a lot on Smallville. But I don't think it's the end of the world if they leave a few "holes" for us to fill in ourselves. Remember, this is Clark's story, not Swann's. Not Lionel's. Not Lex's. Those characters are plot devices, used to help advance Clark's story. The more time you spend in flashback scenes involving Swann and Jor-el, the less time you spend in the present telling Clark's story. I think it is enough to just accept some things as having happened "off screen". I don't think it's such a bad thing to use your imagination. Plot "holes" don't bother me as much as flat-out contradictions. Those DO require more explaining. For example, in Promise when Lionel threatened to kill Clark (if Lana didn't marry Lex) after accepting the responsibility of protecting him. That was a contradiction that demanded an explanation and they did (albeit maybe not to everyone's satisfaction).
-M-

I don't think it's bad to infer some of the smaller, non-mythos stuff. But when it comes to the mythos aspect of the show, they really have to clear stuff up. If they can have a scene where Jimmy & Chloe are dancing like in some spy movie, then they should certainly have enough time to explain some of the most important stuff, like what happened on Krypton and how Kem-El (or whoever was the 1st to visit Earth & Smallville) knew that Naman (Clark) would show up one day and the details of it. If it was time travel, then a scene with Kem-El actually observing Clark from the background would have been very sweet and immensely appreciated by the viewers/fans.

Here we go again. What's wrong with a little mystery? Why do we have to know the name of the Kryptonian who visited the Kawatche or the date he/she visited? Does not knowing really diminish the story? On the contrary. I think it's cool that they DIDN'T give that away. It COULD have been Kem-El, but it doesn't have to be. And speaking of Kem-El, was HIS character really neccessary? Funny how you trash the show for inventing some storylines but other mysterious storylines (like Kem-El's) you embrace. Different strokes for different folks I guess.
-M-

Because people who watch the show for the mythos and who are comic book fans want to know. In comics there are origins and facts revealed that if withheld, would make the story very confusing. Since this show is based on characters from the comics, they need to follow some of the same guidelines. Also, by setting it in stone, it could help prevent contradictions from happening. Had they given us the details of Krypton's destruction, then maybe they would have gone back and changed it from a result of war to a result of a natural disaster (a supernova of the Kryptonian sun). The show uses different writers, and by not setting stuff like this in stone, one writer writing about stuff like Krypton's destruction has no idea what another one who previously wrote about Krypton's destruction actually intended. And that's when conflicts happen.

Going back to the caves set--the set was purely a Smallville set and heavily involved in the Smallville mythos. It should have been kept so that the caves wouldn't have to be written out of the show. Instead, they trashed that set and held onto the clocktower set from Birds of Prey, which they kept in storage for almost as long as Smallville was around and used it as Ollie's apartment. This show is about Clark, not Ollie/Green Arrow, and by sacrificing the caves set when they could have kept it and moved it into the area they stored the clocktower set, they held Ollie in a higher regard than a major part of the mythos of the show's own hero (Clark).

Had they used the caves throughout the seasons (even throughout season 7) as the vehicle in which characters learned about Naman, this show would have been consistently more interesting.

[MBrittan]

the point is that you have singled x-ray out... and there are plenty of people that agree so i don't see why you had to direct is specifially towards him

of course you can defend the show but to make a whole thread to dispute one posters opinion is a little personal IMO

I "singled him out" because he wrote the posts I was responding to. That's usually how it works...
-M-

----- Added 12 Minutes later -----

okay maybe i gave a bad example but the reasons behind a characters purpose needs to make sense. sometimes the things in smallville happen just to happen with a lame ass explanation to back it up. i mean for goodness sakes Al/Miles said that they arent worried about continity they are just trying to write the next script. the thing is that when you are trying to tell a story you have to care about continuity because without that you basically arent telling a story you are just letting things happen just to let them happen. thats a problem.its just liek star wars. people loved the original trilogy. it was such a classic that you could have left them at the way they were because it answered ( at the time) all teh questions we ever needed answered.

when the prequel trilogy came along it added stuff to the story that was inconsistent with the explanations that were given in the original trilogy that people said the story telling simply became an after thought and it became more of a cash cow to draw upon the success of the original in the series.

If I'm following what you're saying (and XRay), you guys aren't big on the individual episodes which don't contribute to the big story arc for the season. For example, the beauty queen episode this season. You probably didn't like the vampire episode in season 5. Or the Krypto/Shelby episode in season 4. My answer to that (I guess) is that not every episode has to be epic. Think about your own life. Not every week has something "big" happen in it. Let's face it, there are some weeks that are actually pretty dull. Of course the weeks which contain a wedding, a birth, a break-up, a death, a birthday, or something like that are going to stand out more. But those things wouldn't be "special" if they happened all the time. The growth in an individual's life (or in Smallville's case, Clark's) is much more gradual. I guess what I'm trying to say is that you're going to have much more "down" time than you will "epic" moments. It's ok for a show like Smallville to "take a break" from the major story arc throughout the season. It doesn't mean they're not honoring the major storyline. It just means there's more going on than just that. Think about your own life again. Could you take any given year of your own life and boil it entirely down to one "arc"? It's kind of silly when you think about it. Life (and the portrayal of it on television) is more complicated than that.
-M-

----- Added 33 Minutes later -----

-M-

I don't think it's bad to infer some of the smaller, non-mythos stuff. But when it comes to the mythos aspect of the show, they really have to clear stuff up. If they can have a scene where Jimmy & Chloe are dancing like in some spy movie, then they should certainly have enough time to explain some of the most important stuff, like what happened on Krypton and how Kem-El (or whoever was the 1st to visit Earth & Smallville) knew that Naman (Clark) would show up one day and the details of it. If it was time travel, then a scene with Kem-El actually observing Clark from the background would have been very sweet and immensely appreciated by the viewers/fans.



Because people who watch the show for the mythos and who are comic book fans want to know. In comics there are origins and facts revealed that if withheld, would make the story very confusing. Since this show is based on characters from the comics, they need to follow some of the same guidelines. Also, by setting it in stone, it could help prevent contradictions from happening. Had they given us the details of Krypton's destruction, then maybe they would have gone back and changed it from a result of war to a result of a natural disaster (a supernova of the Kryptonian sun). The show uses different writers, and by not setting stuff like this in stone, one writer writing about stuff like Krypton's destruction has no idea what another one who previously wrote about Krypton's destruction actually intended. And that's when conflicts happen.

Going back to the caves set--the set was purely a Smallville set and heavily involved in the Smallville mythos. It should have been kept so that the caves wouldn't have to be written out of the show. Instead, they trashed that set and held onto the clocktower set from Birds of Prey, which they kept in storage for almost as long as Smallville was around and used it as Ollie's apartment. This show is about Clark, not Ollie/Green Arrow, and by sacrificing the caves set when they could have kept it and moved it into the area they stored the clocktower set, they held Ollie in a higher regard than a major part of the mythos of the show's own hero (Clark).

Had they used the caves throughout the seasons (even throughout season 7) as the vehicle in which characters learned about Naman, this show would have been consistently more interesting.

Three things here. Actually four (I'm a huge comic book fan myself so you don't have to explain how that stuff works. I've been collecting since I was in junior high school. Superman and Batman have always been my favorites).
#1 I think you may have forgotten something VERY important which may account for at least SOME of your problems with the show. CLARK HASN'T GONE THROUGH HIS TRAINING YET. Don't forget, Clark didn't get the "whole story" in the movies until his fortress was built and he started playing back those memory crystals. This Clark Kent hasn't done that yet. Once he does, I think you'll start to see some of your questions answered, like what REALLY happened to Krypton.
#2 Smallville was never intended to be an exact match for the comic books. It is a reinvention of sorts. They've take a lot of liberty in changing things around and I think for the most part, people haven't minded. Just think about all of the OTHER changes they've made that HAVEN'T attracted much attention...
-Pete Ross being an African American
-Lana Lang being part Asian
-Mr. Myxiplyk being a human
-Lex and Clark knowing each other (and becoming friends) as young men rather than first meeting as adults. (same for Lois Lane)
-Johnathan dying at a younger age (and not being referred to as "Pa Kent")
-Clark meeting Perry White while he was still in high school - and Perry being a drunk
-"Krypto" (Shelby) getting powers from meteor rocks rather than actually being super powered
-Combining the three stones of knowledge to form the fortress rather than a crystal sent along with Clark in his ship
*I could go further but I suspect I've made my point. Smallville has ALREADY made SEVERAL changes that people don't really question. It's a reinvention so if things aren't exactly as they are in the comics, that's OK. As a comic fan, you should know they always hit the "reset" button every so often in the comic book world anyway. They seem to have a major "Crisis" every decade or so so they can start over and change things somewhat. So I question whether or not there really is one set way it should be. Look at Kara (Supergirl) for evidence of that. How many times has HER story been retold? Is she Linda Danvers? Mae? Kara? I've lost track...
#3 I think the reason the caves aren't around is pretty obvious and it has nothing to do with Ollie's apartment. It's because of the fortress. For all intents and purposes, the fortress now fulfills the same purpose as the caves once did. To have both would almost be redundant. BTW, I like Ollie's character. I didn't think he would "fit" in Clark's world at first but I've found that I've really enjoyed his role in the show an awful lot. I like how he seems to be pushing Clark in the direction of using his powers on a bigger scale.

**By the way XRay, if I HAVE insulted you in any way, I do apologize. Although I disagree with you on several points, I do find you VERY interesting to talk to. It's nice to be able to discuss the show with someone who follows it as closely as I do.

[xrayvision]

Three things here. Actually four (I'm a huge comic book fan myself so you don't have to explain how that stuff works. I've been collecting since I was in junior high school. Superman and Batman have always been my favorites).
#1 I think you may have forgotten something VERY important which may account for at least SOME of your problems with the show. CLARK HASN'T GONE THROUGH HIS TRAINING YET. Don't forget, Clark didn't get the "whole story" in the movies until his fortress was built and he started playing back those memory crystals. This Clark Kent hasn't done that yet. Once he does, I think you'll start to see some of your questions answered, like what REALLY happened to Krypton.
#2 Smallville was never intended to be an exact match for the comic books. It is a reinvention of sorts. They've take a lot of liberty in changing things around and I think for the most part, people haven't minded. Just think about all of the OTHER changes they've made that HAVEN'T attracted much attention...
-Pete Ross being an African American
-Lana Lang being part Asian
-Mr. Myxiplyk being a human
-Lex and Clark knowing each other (and becoming friends) as young men rather than first meeting as adults. (same for Lois Lane)
-Johnathan dying at a younger age (and not being referred to as "Pa Kent")
-Clark meeting Perry White while he was still in high school - and Perry being a drunk
-"Krypto" (Shelby) getting powers from meteor rocks rather than actually being super powered
-Combining the three stones of knowledge to form the fortress rather than a crystal sent along with Clark in his ship
*I could go further but I suspect I've made my point. Smallville has ALREADY made SEVERAL changes that people don't really question. It's a reinvention so if things aren't exactly as they are in the comics, that's OK. As a comic fan, you should know they always hit the "reset" button every so often in the comic book world anyway. They seem to have a major "Crisis" every decade or so so they can start over and change things somewhat. So I question whether or not there really is one set way it should be. Look at Kara (Supergirl) for evidence of that. How many times has HER story been retold? Is she Linda Danvers? Mae? Kara? I've lost track...
#3 I think the reason the caves aren't around is pretty obvious and it has nothing to do with Ollie's apartment. It's because of the fortress. For all intents and purposes, the fortress now fulfills the same purpose as the caves once did. To have both would almost be redundant. BTW, I like Ollie's character. I didn't think he would "fit" in Clark's world at first but I've found that I've really enjoyed his role in the show an awful lot. I like how he seems to be pushing Clark in the direction of using his powers on a bigger scale.

**By the way XRay, if I HAVE insulted you in any way, I do apologize. Although I disagree with you on several points, I do find you VERY interesting to talk to. It's nice to be able to discuss the show with someone who follows it as closely as I do.

You haven't insulted me. :) This is an interesting discussion. I just don't know how much I'll be able to reply in the next few days with projects and studying for a final I have to get done for my grad classes.

About #1: The very thing that has made watching this show harder for me is the promise of getting to see his training being broken. In Fallout he said he would begin after all the Phantom Zone prisoners were defeated. I really hoped we would see him ask some questions and get some info by now. It's a big problem with the show. Before I go any further, I have to stress this: In no way do I want his training to be anything like what it was in the movie where he enters the Fortress & 12 years later comes out as Superman. That just says Superman is a product of Jor-El, which is absolutely not the case. Instead, the training process could have spanned over the last few years starting in season 5 or 6 where he would gain experience in fighting super criminals from the Phantom Zone, Brainiac, Zod, Aethyr, Nam-Ek, etc through seasons 7 & possibly 8 where as I strongly suggested he split off his Kal-El side for an entire season and fight him. This is the route I'm taking with my fanfic episodes and it's coming out quite good. I started making my season 7 before Smallville's season 6 ended and it has so far resulted in Lex seeing Clark's Kal-El side in costume and knowing he's Naman (like how in the real season 7 Lex was looking for the Traveler). But because in my fanfics Lex saw Clark & the suited Kal-El at the same time, he knows that Clark is not Naman. This is the path my fanfics will continue on once I get a chance to go back. Had the show actually done this, then Lex would have been in pursuit of Kal-El while Clark and Kal-El battled each other and Clark would be concerned for having his powers exposed.

About #2: I actually enjoy some of the changes that they made. The thing I loved most about this show other than Clark's journey in becoming Superman was Clark & Lex being friends and how their friendship would evolve into a bitter rivalry. So I liked a lot of these, though there are some I didn't really prefer. If they would have had an event like the Crisis, which I suggested a few time on these forums, then I could understand a reboot. But Veritas wasn't the result of that. As long as there is a reason for a retcon (time travel, multiple earths diverging & emerging, etc), I would have no problem buying it. But things like Lionel knowing Clark would show up the day he did (which Swann didn't even know) that were never explained and leave deep questions make it hard for me to enjoy the story.

About #3: I know the caves had nothing to do with Ollie's apartment. I was just saying that if they could have kept the clocktower set from Birds of Prey so long without trashing it, then they should have given the same, if not more respect to the Kawatche cave set. The caves were actually important for the show, while the show could have done without the clocktower apartment. My main reason for believing this is the lack of utilizing the Fortress of Solitude since it was created. We only saw it in Arrival, Hidden, Solitude, Reckoning, Vessel, Zod, Fallout, Kara, Blue, Gemini, Persona, Traveler, and Arctic. That's 13 episodes out of the 64 episodes that have taken place since its creation. Even worse is that besides allowing him to come back to life at the cost of Jonathan Kent's life and allowing him to travel back in time, the Fortress has served no significant purpose in his life. Most of the time, Clark is either abusing it or making a mistake with it (i.e. letting Brainiac corrupt it like he did in Solitude and Vessel or letting Zor-El take it over). Since the FOS hasn't appeared in the show much (only twice in season 6), I think it was a mistake to get rid of the caves so early. They could have provided the mythos element that was missing by misusing or not featuring the FOS. This is my opinion. I think instead of having Veritas & the Traveler, they could have done something else with Lex getting more and more info on Naman from the caves thanks to new symbols popping up as Clark goes through various milestones in his life. Clark could have even used the cave paintings as a guide throughout his life, which I was hoping he would (like in season 2). Lionel's death could have also been better had the cave been used more. I noticed a slight tone in Lex's final conversation with Lionel that is somewhat similar to what I have planned for the fanfic episode I'll be writing where Lionel dies in my timeline. Any readers of that fanfic will see why the elements I've been suggesting for the past few years would have made Lionel's death so much more amazing. I really think the location of the Eradicator is another thing that should be documented in the caves. And I seriously hope we see the Eradicator before the show is over. I really think the Kawatche caves attracted more fans to the show and would have made a seriously positive contribution over the past few years.

My main desire about this show is for it to be as great as possible and believe the past few seasons were not really close to their full potential. Maybe it's because they're trying to please all demographics, but I don't think that's possible. I think by now, they have to pick and choose a demographic and run with it. Those who are really fans may stick with the show regardless. I think right now they should focus more on the comic book fan demographic as it gets closer to the Superman era for Clark. That also includes being careful and maybe even hiring some comic editors to review the episodes of the show and prevent contradictions & confusing storylines from happening.

[susangail]

xrayvision, keep right on doing what you do. Along with so many others, I've appreciated your comments.

[MBrittan]

You haven't insulted me. :) This is an interesting discussion. I just don't know how much I'll be able to reply in the next few days with projects and studying for a final I have to get done for my grad classes.

About #1: The very thing that has made watching this show harder for me is the promise of getting to see his training being broken. In Fallout he said he would begin after all the Phantom Zone prisoners were defeated. I really hoped we would see him ask some questions and get some info by now. It's a big problem with the show. Before I go any further, I have to stress this: In no way do I want his training to be anything like what it was in the movie where he enters the Fortress & 12 years later comes out as Superman. That just says Superman is a product of Jor-El, which is absolutely not the case. Instead, the training process could have spanned over the last few years starting in season 5 or 6 where he would gain experience in fighting super criminals from the Phantom Zone, Brainiac, Zod, Aethyr, Nam-Ek, etc through seasons 7 & possibly 8 where as I strongly suggested he split off his Kal-El side for an entire season and fight him. This is the route I'm taking with my fanfic episodes and it's coming out quite good. I started making my season 7 before Smallville's season 6 ended and it has so far resulted in Lex seeing Clark's Kal-El side in costume and knowing he's Naman (like how in the real season 7 Lex was looking for the Traveler). But because in my fanfics Lex saw Clark & the suited Kal-El at the same time, he knows that Clark is not Naman. This is the path my fanfics will continue on once I get a chance to go back. Had the show actually done this, then Lex would have been in pursuit of Kal-El while Clark and Kal-El battled each other and Clark would be concerned for having his powers exposed.

About #2: I actually enjoy some of the changes that they made. The thing I loved most about this show other than Clark's journey in becoming Superman was Clark & Lex being friends and how their friendship would evolve into a bitter rivalry. So I liked a lot of these, though there are some I didn't really prefer. If they would have had an event like the Crisis, which I suggested a few time on these forums, then I could understand a reboot. But Veritas wasn't the result of that. As long as there is a reason for a retcon (time travel, multiple earths diverging & emerging, etc), I would have no problem buying it. But things like Lionel knowing Clark would show up the day he did (which Swann didn't even know) that were never explained and leave deep questions make it hard for me to enjoy the story.

About #3: I know the caves had nothing to do with Ollie's apartment. I was just saying that if they could have kept the clocktower set from Birds of Prey so long without trashing it, then they should have given the same, if not more respect to the Kawatche cave set. The caves were actually important for the show, while the show could have done without the clocktower apartment. My main reason for believing this is the lack of utilizing the Fortress of Solitude since it was created. We only saw it in Arrival, Hidden, Solitude, Reckoning, Vessel, Zod, Fallout, Kara, Blue, Gemini, Persona, Traveler, and Arctic. That's 13 episodes out of the 64 episodes that have taken place since its creation. Even worse is that besides allowing him to come back to life at the cost of Jonathan Kent's life and allowing him to travel back in time, the Fortress has served no significant purpose in his life. Most of the time, Clark is either abusing it or making a mistake with it (i.e. letting Brainiac corrupt it like he did in Solitude and Vessel or letting Zor-El take it over). Since the FOS hasn't appeared in the show much (only twice in season 6), I think it was a mistake to get rid of the caves so early. They could have provided the mythos element that was missing by misusing or not featuring the FOS. This is my opinion. I think instead of having Veritas & the Traveler, they could have done something else with Lex getting more and more info on Naman from the caves thanks to new symbols popping up as Clark goes through various milestones in his life. Clark could have even used the cave paintings as a guide throughout his life, which I was hoping he would (like in season 2). Lionel's death could have also been better had the cave been used more. I noticed a slight tone in Lex's final conversation with Lionel that is somewhat similar to what I have planned for the fanfic episode I'll be writing where Lionel dies in my timeline. Any readers of that fanfic will see why the elements I've been suggesting for the past few years would have made Lionel's death so much more amazing. I really think the location of the Eradicator is another thing that should be documented in the caves. And I seriously hope we see the Eradicator before the show is over. I really think the Kawatche caves attracted more fans to the show and would have made a seriously positive contribution over the past few years.

My main desire about this show is for it to be as great as possible and believe the past few seasons were not really close to their full potential. Maybe it's because they're trying to please all demographics, but I don't think that's possible. I think by now, they have to pick and choose a demographic and run with it. Those who are really fans may stick with the show regardless. I think right now they should focus more on the comic book fan demographic as it gets closer to the Superman era for Clark. That also includes being careful and maybe even hiring some comic editors to review the episodes of the show and prevent contradictions & confusing storylines from happening.

XRay,
There's a lot of information to process here. I'll touch on a few things...
#1 I liked your idea of a Clark/Kal split with "Kal" becoming Naman. That's brilliant actually. It would totally divert Lex's attention away from Clark. And at the end of the season, they could always "merge" the two again with black Kryptonite. Great idea.
#2 I don't think the Fortress has been a huge part of the show (again) because Clark hasn't gone through his training yet. In Clark's mind, it's merely a place to talk to Jor-el (as the caves were). It's like walking into a library and not picking up a book. You can't fully appreciate it until you roll up your sleeves and starting taking advantage of all of the knowledge at your fingertips. In Clark's mind, submitting to the training is to "give in" to Jor-el and accept his destiny. He's not ready to do that (yet). I think (in his mind) doing so would mean he'd somehow lose some of his own free will (as he did the last time Jor-el wanted him to be "reborn"). Given his past experience (when the fake Kara tricked him), I can understand his apprehension. In a way, the same goes for the caves. His future is literally written out on the wall in front him. Nobody likes the idea of having their future planned out for them. It's too restricting.
#3 I think the orb Lex found in his fireplace could be the Eradicator. If memory serves, the Eradicator did start out as an orb (like that one). It eventually kept evolving until it finally took humanoid form. But the only difference is, the orb was meant to control Clark. The Eradicator was built to preserve all things Kryptonian. Is there a way to make them one and the same? Or is that too much of a stretch?
-M-

[xrayvision]

Thanks for the kind words about #1.

#2: Would you agree though that given that they have put off Clark's training for so long that they should have not debuted the FOS as early as they did? Some interesting things did go on in there, but I think they could have held off on that and spent their money more wisely by not spending it on something they have barely utilized so far. The one thing I have to disagree on is that in earlier seasons, Clark wasn't afraid to go to the caves. Even after what Jor-El did to him in Covenant and in that summer between that episode & Crusade, Clark took treks to the cave in season 4. He accepted the caves and the legend back then and I liked that. I really didn't like his attitude in Quest and the disrespect he had for the caves & legend which he knew were proven to be true after what happened in Talisman.

#3: I've been thinking too and made several posts about the orb/device being the Eradicator. Perhaps, what it wants to do is bring down the FOS and recreate it to fulfill its own agenda and free will. That is what happened in the comics. When the Eradicator was a device, it open gateways to the Phantom Zone, made Jimmy Olsen malleable, and caused all sorts of chaos. I'd love to see something like this in season 8. Clark dealing with the consequences of its actions would be a great way for him to train (part of his training). That would give him crisis management training. Fighting his Kal-El side would give him battle experience against a super being tougher than himself (at the moment). And going to Jor-El for occasional lessons would give him technical & other mental training (he would get insights on technology, the types of kryptonite he will encounter during his life, etc).

[MBrittan]

Thanks for the kind words about #1.

#2: Would you agree though that given that they have put off Clark's training for so long that they should have not debuted the FOS as early as they did? Some interesting things did go on in there, but I think they could have held off on that and spent their money more wisely by not spending it on something they have barely utilized so far. The one thing I have to disagree on is that in earlier seasons, Clark wasn't afraid to go to the caves. Even after what Jor-El did to him in Covenant and in that summer between that episode & Crusade, Clark took treks to the cave in season 4. He accepted the caves and the legend back then and I liked that. I really didn't like his attitude in Quest and the disrespect he had for the caves & legend which he knew were proven to be true after what happened in Talisman.

#3: I've been thinking too and made several posts about the orb/device being the Eradicator. Perhaps, what it wants to do is bring down the FOS and recreate it to fulfill its own agenda and free will. That is what happened in the comics. When the Eradicator was a device, it open gateways to the Phantom Zone, made Jimmy Olsen malleable, and caused all sorts of chaos. I'd love to see something like this in season 8. Clark dealing with the consequences of its actions would be a great way for him to train (part of his training). That would give him crisis management training. Fighting his Kal-El side would give him battle experience against a super being tougher than himself (at the moment). And going to Jor-El for occasional lessons would give him technical & other mental training (he would get insights on technology, the types of kryptonite he will encounter during his life, etc).

A couple of things here...
#1 I think they made the transition from the caves to the fortress because the fortress is a part of the superman mythos, the caves are not. Honestly, I don't think they ever intended for the caves to be as big of a part of the series as they became. I think they kind of took on a life of their own in the show after awhile. I think originally it was only supposed to be a brief thing (a couple of episodes) to play with the Naman idea.
#2 I think you and I have a different idea of what Clark's training will include. You seem to think of it as a gradual process which will occur in and out of the fortress, over the course of years. I think of it more as a "cram" session. Maybe a couple of months (uninterrupted) of nothing but Kryptonian history and everything else he needs to know to fulfill his destiny. In other words, I think once he submits to it, he won't be allowed to leave for several weeks until it is done. Afterward, he won't be blind-sided by things like Zod and Brainiac. He'll know. And I do think this will happen closer to the end of the show now because once he endures the training, it will create a sense of urgency in Clark to "do something".
-M-

[xrayvision]

Well, I always feared that it would be a cram session, which is IMO the biggest mistake they can make. I think they really owe it to the fans to show the actual training after all the promises. A cram session is more like the Superman movie. The training in that movie was my main complaint about it.

I know you think it will turn out to be a cram session, but which would you actually prefer if you had your choice? A gradual training period or a cram session?

[MBrittan]

Well, I always feared that it would be a cram session, which is IMO the biggest mistake they can make. I think they really owe it to the fans to show the actual training after all the promises. A cram session is more like the Superman movie. The training in that movie was my main complaint about it.

I know you think it will turn out to be a cram session, but which would you actually prefer if you had your choice? A gradual training period or a cram session?

How do I hope they handle it on the show? I kind of pictured Clark in the fortress, in a similar position to the one Chloe found him in at the beginning of season 5 (when she revealed that she knew his secret). I kind of pictured the information just kind of coming at him in waves. Images (scenes) of Krypton, it's landscapes, famous people and events, etc., being narrated by Jor-el. Almost like a live-action documentary of sorts. I also pictured them eventually showing Clark Jor-el's face sometime before the end of the show and I think it would be cool if they used Terrance Stamp's image (rather than Brando's). I would have this go on over the course an entire episode. In other words, Clark just "sits out" the rest of the episode. The rest of the episode would focus on the other characters like Chloe, Lois, Lana, or Lex and the would sort of switch back-and-forth between that and Clark's training. But I wouldn't drag it out any longer than that because it just wouldn't hold the audience's interest longer than maybe one episode. The "training" I had in mind would almost play out like "school". Not neccessarily "Being a Superhero 101" but rather, here is where you come from and why it's important...
-M-

[xrayvision]

That's pretty much how my episode Krypton is like. Clark goes to repair the damage to the FOS caused by Lionel & Hank Henshaw and while doing so is being taught about Krypton's history, about the Kawatche caves and how Kem-El discovered them, how Kem-El saw the future with a device he built and how he dismantled that device and used its parts to create the Eradicator and how the 3 parts of the Eradicator were seperated and hidden on Earth, on Krypton, and later on partly in the Phantom Zone. Clark also learned that Swann was the Krypton-2 version of himself who built a time machine and went into the future of Earth-2 during the time of the Crisis & got sucked into an interdimensional gateway and ended up on Earth-1 at the same time. He realized that Krypton-1 unlike Krypton-2 was destroyed and wished to go back to save it. So he went back in time to Krypton-1 (lost all non-rudimentary memories in the process) so he could see Jor-El and Lara one final time just before Krypton exploded. Jor-El found out what happened (because Swann programmed his ship to erase his mind so he couldn't influence future events) when he saw the data/memories in Swann's (Kal-El-2's) mind stored on a hard drive in Swann's ship when he was repairing it and sent him off before sending Clark off as a baby. This was the explanation as to why Jor-El trusted Swann so much and why he sent those messages. Unfortunately, Swann lingered and wanted to see Jor-El and got into his ship too late and Krypton's explosion did serious damage to his ship and sent it back to the 1970's. The ship was programmed to go to Earth and crash landed. The explosion of Krypton caused Swann to permanently lose his powers & the trip through time made him lose all memories of who he was. When he woke up after landing on Earth in the 1970's, the people who found him didn't know he was an alien and when he saw remnants of his ship, he believed it to be an alien's and didn't know it was his own. So the ship he came to Earth (with the time machine built inside) in is what gave him his life's goal in searching for aliens.

But in my fanfics, this is only a part of Clark's training. Clark is also battling Kal-El and will battle several others.

[MBrittan]

That's pretty much how my episode Krypton is like. Clark goes to repair the damage to the FOS caused by Lionel & Hank Henshaw and while doing so is being taught about Krypton's history, about the Kawatche caves and how Kem-El discovered them, how Kem-El saw the future with a device he built and how he dismantled that device and used its parts to create the Eradicator and how the 3 parts of the Eradicator were seperated and hidden on Earth, on Krypton, and later on partly in the Phantom Zone. Clark also learned that Swann was the Krypton-2 version of himself who built a time machine and went into the future of Earth-2 during the time of the Crisis & got sucked into an interdimensional gateway and ended up on Earth-1 at the same time. He realized that Krypton-1 unlike Krypton-2 was destroyed and wished to go back to save it. So he went back in time to Krypton-1 (lost all non-rudimentary memories in the process) so he could see Jor-El and Lara one final time just before Krypton exploded. Jor-El found out what happened (because Swann programmed his ship to erase his mind so he couldn't influence future events) when he saw the data/memories in Swann's (Kal-El-2's) mind stored on a hard drive in Swann's ship when he was repairing it and sent him off before sending Clark off as a baby. This was the explanation as to why Jor-El trusted Swann so much and why he sent those messages. Unfortunately, Swann lingered and wanted to see Jor-El and got into his ship too late and Krypton's explosion did serious damage to his ship and sent it back to the 1970's. The ship was programmed to go to Earth and crash landed. The explosion of Krypton caused Swann to permanently lose his powers & the trip through time made him lose all memories of who he was. When he woke up after landing on Earth in the 1970's, the people who found him didn't know he was an alien and when he saw remnants of his ship, he believed it to be an alien's and didn't know it was his own. So the ship he came to Earth (with the time machine built inside) in is what gave him his life's goal in searching for aliens.

But in my fanfics, this is only a part of Clark's training. Clark is also battling Kal-El and will battle several others.

Too confusing. Hard to follow. You have to keep it more simple than that, especially when you consider that Smallville is intended for a television audience. I did like the part about something being "hidden" in the Phantom Zone though. That would create an interesting dilema for Clark. Something he absolutely needed to have but hidden in the worst place possible, with no guarantee of getting out once he finds it...
-M-

[xrayvision]

I think if something like that was done in a TV movie seperate from the show it wouldn't be confusing. Especially if they played recaps from the show where Chloe talked about Swann's past (from Rosetta) prior to the airing of the movie as a reminder.

[MBrittan]

I think if something like that was done in a TV movie seperate from the show it wouldn't be confusing. Especially if they played recaps from the show where Chloe talked about Swann's past (from Rosetta) prior to the airing of the movie as a reminder.

Actually, I was thinking just the oppostite. In a TV movie, you might be forced to tell the story too quickly and then it might become confusing. Maybe it would actually be better in episode form where you could spoon feed it to the audience at a slower rate. I don't mind being forced to think closely when I watch a TV show or movie (I rather enjoy it actually), but I suspect I don't speak for most people...
-M-

[SweetOne]

I had to take a look at this thread because I know that I have always enjoyed your posts xrayvision, and I wanted to know what kind of "advice" you were being offered!!! Well let me just say that you have another person here at K-site that fully supports your posts (and line of thinking). Then again I have been accused of being "too analytical" as well. I think your posts are brilliant and extremely well thought out. I love the detail you get into. While I may cry out against the shoddy writing I can't always come up with (remember) specific episodes/scenes to back up my complaints. So I basically feel EXACTLY the way you do about the show's decline in quality and (to be honest *blushes*) it makes me a bit "starry-eyed" to read you posts that explain my thoughts so well!! Nothing is better to me, than a wordy, passionate, well-thought out, INTELLIGENT post. For all of us that are just really disappointed by what SV has become, you hold up our end of the debate remarkably well.

But in this case, it's not even close to 100% without error. There are tons of errors and plenty of questions that have come up and never answered.

See, I'm also a fan of Supernatural, and IMO the writers of that show are doing a spectacular job. The continuity is great and the episodes are coherent without leaving important questions to be answered. I felt the same about the first 3 seasons of Smallville. The writing was superb, Clark was comparable to his comic book counterpart, and the progression of each season was great.

Season 1 started out with Clark finding out he was an alien, saving Lex, and battling all sorts of freaks. It also had Lex as of X-Ray speaking to Roger Nixon and having him investigate--something that came back at the end of the season when Nixon spied on the Kents. It also started with Lex and his disdain for his father and trying to prove himself to Lionel. It ended with Lionel firing everyone to get Lex to move back to Metropolis (hence that power struggle thing between the 2).

Season 2 started out with Clark's ship being lost and Pete finding it and his secret and Dr. Hamilton finding the ship and showing it to a blind Lionel. From there Lionel took a deep interest in Clark and the stuff with the caves happened and Clark met Swann. The season ended with Lionel taking the caves from Lex and trying to make his own key to find its secrets. The mythos elements of the cave and Clark's ship and Swann were continuously flowing throughout the season and in the end Clark's learning of the Kryptonian language led to him being considered "of age" by Jor-El to begin his quest for the stones.

Season 3 started with Clark in Metropolis under the influence of red-k after making a mistake and blowing up his ship, which caused Martha to miscarry. Jonathan made a deal with Jor-El and this deal kept resonating throughout the season (in Hereafter when Jonathan had a heart attack, in Resurrection when he had heart surgery, in Legacy when Jor-El told him he was waiting, and in Covenant when Jor-El had enough of waiting and sent Lindsay Harrison as Kara). Lex's insanity seen in Exile flowed throughout the season and climaxed in Shattered & Asylum. Immediately resulting from that was Lex's thirst to acquire his lost memories, which continued in the 2nd half of the season. The vial of Clark's blood in Exile and Phoenix also was a recurring theme in Resurrection, Crisis and several other episodes. So was Lionel's continuing interest in Clark and the caves. Chloe's arrangement with Lionel was another big plot.

Season 7 didn't have such a good flow. We got Bizarro (who was a great villian), who then just disappeared until Gemini. We then got a Julian clone arc that just led to nowhere (killed by Lex and no follow-up by Lionel, Lois, Clark or Chloe for facts). The same happened after Lionel's death. We had an interesting character with Dr. Knox, but never saw him again either. We also had interesting tidbits of life on Krypton in Kara and Lara that culminated into the events in Blue. But this had nothing to do with the Veritas storyline that permeated the last 7 episodes. There was no Julian in those last episodes, no Zor-El, no Lara, no Curtis Knox, and not enough Brainiac as there should have been. The season had too many things going on and they didn't come together. And it left too many unanswered questions that could have been avoided had they used something else other than Veritas.

None of the other shows I watch have this problem. House is a show that's brilliantly written. I also like Supernatural's writing. As much as I disliked most of season 6, I didn't think it did as bad a job of being a coherent season. I blame it mainly on the Veritas retcon. And I'm unsatisfied that a character I loved throughout my life (Superman/Clark Kent) is so ignorant, pathetic and even disrespectful with only a season left until he supposedly becomes Superman.

I can understand Clark making mistakes as long as he's trying like he did in Shattered when he did everything in his power to try to save Lex from being mind-zapped. But Clark now just lets the world go to hell and tries to save it after it's too late. He needs reassurance from Chloe to go and act. This is after Jonathan died, after Lionel died, after he was trapped in the Phantom Zone, after Lana was put into that comatose state, after Zor-El nearly killed him, after Brainiac went back in time to try to kill him, etc. We were promised Clark's training as soon as the last phantom was killed. That officially happened in Persona and we haven't seen any training.

I guess I'm just an optimist, waiting for things to turn around and become good again (which I thought would have been this season). Just like I watch the Knicks knowing that they're horrible and suck and will keep losing, but that they will eventually turn things around. I'm hoping the same for the show that I spent too much time watching and posting about.

Ok. Word for word...this post is perfect. As a fellow Supernatural fan, I am always making comparisons between the writing of the two shows. Supernatural is just pheneomenal EVERY season. The writing is always tight and focused, well-paced and progressive. I think because I can see the high caliber level writing in SPN, I expect the same of SV. I mean SV does have the potential to be just as well-written.

I know many people are able to cut the show some slack because it's just for "entertainment" so we should "sit back and enjoy". I've tried to do that but but it's all the more obvious that SV is lacking when you watch other superior TV shows every week. Amongst the other shows SV sticks out like a sore thumb because they pretty much put Smallville to shame.

I would agree that the only REALLY strong, focused, high-quality writing came from seasons 1-3 (and arguably S4 because he was still in highschool-loved those years) because the story moved forward at a steady pace and more importantly Clark moved FORWARD (and we had a great core cast of characters). Unfortunately, all the seasons beyond that went steadily downhill. For the next 4 seasons we watched Clark dig his heels in the ground and refuse to move. His character needed to evolve and develop, but most of the time we watch a Clark that has regressed in his journey rather than progressed. It is so insanely FRUSTRATING. They have not done the Clark Kent character justice for several years now.

But this latest season has been the worst. One of the main reasons why I think that Clark Kent has been written poorly (esp. this past year) is size of the cast of characters. It's quantity vs. quality people. They only have 40 mins. an episode so if the writers have to focus on (keep on developing) the other characters they have brought on the show...let's count 'em- Lana, Chloe, Lex, Lionel, Kara, Lois, Jimmy even Julian....that's less time developing and enriching Clark Kent's character. Again, this is one of the reasons why I think Supernatural is so successful. It has a small core cast. The writers are able to spend more time investing in the main characters, Sam and Dean, because they are not dividing their attention with so many side characters.

But the real deal breaker for me with Smallville, was the introduction of the Veritas storyline. I instantly hated it. It re-writes so many long established SV storylines. I don't care what anyone says about how "they planned for it all along" because they didn't. It's obvious. (and I love how you can list so explicitly how obvious it is that it is recently contrived) We all know it boils down to the fact that they needed to come up with a major arc for S7 and apparently didn't really care about stepping all over accepted GROUNDED SV history. That or they were stupid enough to think that we wouldn't notice the discrepancies. But I seriously cannot put much behind that theory because there is NO WAY they could be that stupid. Trust me people, I have let many...MANY plotholes and inconsistancies go on and I took the whole "Who cares, just enjoy the show!" approach but once Veritas hit, I couldn't do it anymore. It was too big. I just couldn't get past how much it screwed up arcs that came before it.

That is one of the reasons why I love your posts xrayvision!! Your arguments against Veritas are brilliant as far as the depth that you get into about the this inconsistancy. I love how analytical you are and I don't think you go too far. I enjoy discussing/debating/analyzing pretty much every aspect of a show. My roomate thinks I'm quite insane (more likely a really big geek). I could probably have an hour long conversation analyzing Sammy's change in haircut from S1 to S2 and why I didn't like it and what the show is trying to imply by changing it, etc. So I know all about discussing in great detail, issues that others find insignificant.

I also enjoy your accurate points about the other aspects of SV (not just the plotholes and inconsistancies). I completely agree when you said And I'm unsatisfied that a character I loved throughout my life (Superman/Clark Kent) is so ignorant, pathetic and even disrespectful with only a season left until he supposedly becomes Superman. This has been a pebble in my shoe for a while now!!! In agreement with you, I guess I'll just repost my thoughts from another thread here at K-site-

Smallville is supposed to be the journey of Clark Kent becoming Superman, right?? Well I have not seen much progression (if any) in fact he has almost regressed from his destiny. Yes, it's not too much to expect that Clark would at first reject his role in coming to earth, it's not even too much to expect that he would try to put it off for a while BUT AT SOME POINT (which has long passed) he should have started to feel in his heart a growing (instinctual) desire to save/help the human race. And little by little he should have solidified his job at the DP and began proactively taking down evil. (even if it a mugging here or a kitten there)

We have seen 7 seasons of Clark fighting his great destiny....and we have what? ONE more season? So we are supposed to believe that Clark fights right up until he just "gives in" to it? I thought SV was supposed to give us an idea about what it was for Clark to grow into his role and I don't think they have done a very good portrayal. I think at some point, maybe around season 4(?), he should have begun to GRADUALLY embrace his destiny. And we could have watched him work swiftly and firmly to Superman status thoughout season 8, ending with him as "Superman". That is, I'm assuming that is what the producers had planned, ending Smallville with Clark Kent as Superman. As it is, in season 7 we have seen Clark recently throw a red cape carelessly on a fence post and walk in the opposite direction. This being symbolic that Clark Kent is STILL firmly opposed to his role. And we're expected to believe that he miraculously decides to do what is good and right and proactive and BECOME Superman in the span of ONE season (season 8)?

I'm just saying that they could have given us more of Clark Kent accepting his destiny without "sacrificing" storyline. So I don't like it when people say "well we wouldn't have 7 seasons if he HAD accepted his destiny". We would have had PLENTY of storylines even if Clark had been more active about moving towards his future as Superman.

As it stands now with only ONE SEASON LEFT(!) Clark knows nothing about journalism (no education), he does NOT work at the DP and most importantly he does not show ANY desire to get into the field of journalism. How are we supposed to equate that with "nearly upon us" Superman? I think Season 5 would have been an appropriate time to increase the involvement of journalism in Clark Kent's life. This will one day be HALF of his identity, his 9-5 job (unless he's out saving someone of course!) and it's COMPLETELY underdeveloped!!

I can't stand how irresponsible and careless they have been with the number of seasons they have had. What a waste!! And now they're scrambling to cram it all into one season. The quality will not be the same as if they would have paced his development properly. I predict a very unsatisfying final season. I think it is definitely going to feel too rushed. I honestly hope I'm wrong, but I don't think they haveleft themselves any choice but to rush through it.

Theshadow, I also wanted to let you know that I've always enjoyed reading your intelligent posts as well!

[Thrill_Seeker]

Yeah, I know the logo was always there. The symbol was retconned into the story though, otherwise they wouldn't have all these inconsistencies had this been planned all along.

It just bothers me that a show I liked so much has been torn apart by such bad writing. They keep trashing Clark and tearing down the character that had been carefully built up during the early years.

Sometimes it seems like they're insulting us and think that we won't remember their previous explanations. I seriously hope the new powers that be are much better than Al/Miles.

I'm not sure if you saw Arctic yet, but that episode really was a letdown for many longtime fans of the show who had been waiting to see how Clark & Lex would end up.

no you just arent able to see the way how they are developing clark in a good way.
this is the most important part of clarks life to learn from.
all the mistakes he makes, where do you think he learns ???
but obviously they cant have him accept his destiny so then the show would be coming to an end if that happened, so really people (ALL people) should just relax and enjoy what the show is. i think everything that has been happening is neccessary to clarks development and the writers certainly havent been trashing us with clarks story

----- Added 4 Minutes later -----

I can't stand how irresponsible and careless they have been with the number of seasons they have had. What a waste!! And now they're scrambling to cram it all into one season. The quality will not be the same as if they would have paced his development properly. I predict a very unsatisfying final season. I think it is definitely going to feel too rushed. I honestly hope I'm wrong, but I don't think they haveleft themselves any choice but to rush through it.

[quote]

first of all, your most likely prediciting wrong, and by the things that you;ve said i can tell that you are one of those people who can never be satisfied.
you just complain, and so many people are sick and tired of it. nothings been wrong with the show, no quality decline or loss of anything, you just havent been able to see whats really going on and see how the writers are developing the characters. if you think that the writers are irresponsible and careless than i should feel ashamed of myself if i were you. you have no idea how hard these people work, and the people who know the characters best are the people who have developed them over the past 7 years.

so there hasnt been anything wrong, YOU just dont like it, which is your own personal opinion and myself and others shouldnt have to listen to your non-stop complaining.
Im sick of defending a show that shouldnt need not one ounce of defending.

[SweetOne]

but obviously they cant have him accept his destiny so then the show would be coming to an end if that happened

I have heard this argument a million times and it just isn't true. I'm not asking for them to write in the script, Clark saying "I have decided to accept my destiny.... I want to become Superman now." But there are a lot of LITLLE ways they could have cleverely shown his evolvement into Superman, possibly without even Clark Kent realizing it. One small way I think they could have eased Clark towards his destiny is with his job in journalism or his "rise to" his job in journalism. There has been virually NO development in that in the last several seasons. It is something that the writers could have used to tell us, "He's getting there people!" But for years, we have seen nothing evident in Clark Kent's life that would gives us the idea that he will one day have a 9-5 job working at the DP.

Another aspect that they could have written in with better planning, is Clark wearing glasses and how it will some day play into his hidden identity. This has not been given the proper attention and now many are wondering exactly how SV's Clark Kent is going to handle his secret identity. And I know the writers may not even get to Clark wearing "the suit" on SV but as Theshadow said, they should at least have an idea...a rational...about how it will work, instead of leaving the viewers wondering how he is going to pull it off.

Just as those anvils are dropped in each show....the forshadowing of who Clark will become, there are definitely ways that the writers could have evolved Clark's character without really having him "officially" accept his destiny.

One of the main areas that was ill-planned, that was a great way to show Clark's growth into Superman (but for the most part I'm actually not blaming the writers) was him discovering his powers. He developed them so early on in the series that it really gave the writers no choice but to dangle the final "flying" one in front of us for 4 seasons. If they had been placed further apart in the series we might have seen a steadier more balanced progression of Superman. As it is, we saw him progress..progress...progress....in season 1-3(4), and then stay the same for the rest of the series. I think his development of powers had a huge impact on how the viewers percive his advancement (or lack thereof) as Superman. LOL The one thing I have to point out it is that if the producers weren't so determined to stretch this series out (beyond what it should have been IMO) we would not have had this problem!!!

and by the things that you've said I can tell that you are one of those people who can never be satisfied.

Actually if I was one of "those people" I would be "nitpicking" as you say, every TV show I watched. But I don't. There are many shows I have almost nothing but praises for. I'm going to call an apple an apple. If it's a solid show, I'll call it a solid show. I'll give it the credit it deserves. I was very satisfied with Smallville earlier on, and I am plenty satisified by several other shows on TV right now. But SV has been written too sloppily for me to do that, and I was saying in my previous post that SV's flaws just seem to be all the more noticeable because of the superior quality of the shows around it.


so there hasnt been anything wrong, YOU just dont like it, which is your own personal opinion and myself and others shouldnt have to listen to your non-stop complaining. Im sick of defending a show that shouldnt need not one ounce of defending.

Correct, I "just don't don't like it". And isn't that what these boards are for?? To discuss the show and allow everyone a chance to voice their opinion. You shouldn't have to listen to it and you don't have to defend it. I'm pretty sure any threads that I have posted my so called "complaining" in have been appropriate ones to do so in. I don't just go into any thread and start an argument with people about how the show sucks, but yeah...there are specific threads out there to discuss what we as the viewers aren't too happy with, and we have the right to. My question is, why do you go into these threads in the first place?? We aren't actually forcing you to read our posts. You are right, "you shouldn't have to listen"....so don't. There are plenty of threads here where you can talk about how entertaining this show is for you. And we do not ask you to defend it, we aren't demanding you to tell us what makes this show "so great". We simply want a place where we can meet and under common ground dicuss the issues we have with this show.

I really am sorry, that you are so upset by our posts. But unfortunately you can't change people so the best way to go is to just avoid these threads...:\

[Humdinger]

I've always enjoyed Xray's comments, he brings up salient points about the shortcomings of Smallville that need to be said, as well as compliments. But MBrittan I think your original comment belongs in a PM rather than a thread. It looks as though you're criticising Xray when you look at the thread title and many people are not gonna read through long posts to see exactly what is going on here even though the actual thread has developed into an episode discussion.

[jimmyolsenblues]

This thread is closed because threads about analyzing posters is against the rules.

- rule 10) Psychoanalyzing other fans or posters views
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