Why this episode contradicts all that is Lex Luthor

[overman504]

For the past four or five seasons the writers have been feeding us this whole road to darkness that ends up to Lex being the evil mythical Lex archetype that we've all come to love to hate. And, Smallville has been feeding us this line... that Clark had someway in affecting Lex's pathway to Darkness... And this episode has completely contradicted everything that we've been told... therefore I can no longer watch Smalliville. I'm finally gonna kick this monkey off my back. No more smallville... Goodbye ol' friend

[AlwaysRight]

Lex is an evil businessman type of guy(ie everything he does is for his personal interest). I took the loft scene with Clark to be him trying to figure out what Clark's secret is using Lana as a pawn

[Cogito17]

I thought Clark was the one that "held off the darkness inside Lex", prolonging his inevitable slip to being evil. So, in a sense this was appropriate, as Lex had slipped into being the bad guy/lusting for power every bit as much in Clark's absence if not more.

[ClarksGal]

So...you wanted Lex to be good in the AU? And therefore it would have actually been better if Clark had been killed by Brainiac as a baby? And that would have been a good show, why?

[minerva73]

I dunno. Lex would have ended up evil with or without Clark before this episode IMO. Lionel treated him like trash and Lex grew to accept those habits and practice them himself. Clark may have aided Lex in his descent into darkness, but Lionel among others have also influenced Lex's decision to walk down that path.

[Lexgirl33]

This episode contradicted it because Clark didn't exist. Get it? Therefore no Clark=Different Lex.

[superspider02]

yea different things happened to lex that caused him to be evil in the AU and the loft scene in the end of the episode i take it as other said and he is trying to get clark's secret.

[RichardMarx]

Maybe I'm wrong, but wasn't that alternate universe just created by Jor-El to show Clark what might have happened. It was only a possible scenario. Lex being good or bad didn't really matter.

[Ginx]

Well, take into account not Clark but the whole alien thing and Lex was still in contact with Kara and alien related information - so he would have chosen the same path except that Clark wasn't there to help prevent him or delay him into becoming evil - so Lex in AU was further along in his evilness than the Lex of the usual SV. No paradox - Lex was still exposed to an alien or possible unexplained things - he was in contact with Brainiac (unknowingly) so it's not hard to imagine that Lex was even more super evil in the AU.

Nothing to do with CK this time around but it was basically saying that Lex will be evil in whichever timeline by his own choices and ideas - he was just influenced to either accelerate those ideas or delay them in the various timelines/realities.

[BIGBLUE10789]

clark may have had a hand in lexs descent but he definitley bought time for lex to be good. It was inevitable in the real world or AU but lex was going to go evil, just in the AU he went faster because of no clark.

[Vergon6]

Right, Clark proved in some cases that his presence delayed the inevitable (Lex) and I am assuming, hastened the inevitable (Brainiac) in the regular timeline. There was no mention of when Brainiac arrived on Earth in the alternate timeline, but I figured that it was likely later than the normal timeline.

[jimmyolsenblues]

i think its important to realize we did not see the real lex, this was jor-el's interpretation of lex. it could have been simply lex represents humanity's obsession with war and nuclear bombs.

[SteveS]

I never accepted the immature argument that ClarkMan was responsible for Lex's criminality/immorality/lack of scruples, so I didn't see it that was and if you look at the old episodes, Cassandra envisioned Lex pretty much as he was. (what was with the black glove thing?)

[jpoeling]

How does this episode contradict anything. Lets look back to the early seasons where Lionel played mind games with Lex to guide him down the path to be his successor. During those episodes it was Clark who was his beacon of light that kept him from bending to his father's well. Without Clark there Lex's descent was just quicker because he didn't have good moral person to influence him, he had his father and that was it. The Alternate Universe was just speeded up in that aspect.

[Jlvsclrk]

Let's put it this way. One of the most persistent themes of the show is that Clark feels guilty for EVERYTHING, even when he should not. From the day he saw the Wall of Wierd in the pilot, he has felt "It's all my fault." The meteor shower, the death of Lana's parents, Lex's baldness, all the meteor freaks... Most of his actions and relationships have been shaped by that guilt. He's denied Chloe's assertions that he's a hero: he thinks he's just been trying to clean up the messes he's created.

So this episode does mark a pivotal change in Clark's worldview: yes, some people would be better off if he had never existed. At least until Lex unleashes nuclear armageddon and destroys them all that is. It's an object lesson in the meaning of the greater good, and a welcome progression.


I never accepted the immature argument that ClarkMan was responsible for Lex's criminality/immorality/lack of scruples, so I didn't see it that was and if you look at the old episodes, Cassandra envisioned Lex pretty much as he was. (what was with the black glove thing?)

I too have never bought the Clark Kent caused Lex's descent into evil - clearly, Lionel and IMHO even more so Lillian were the main cause. Heck, I'd rank Helen's betrayal far more highly.

The black glove thing was a shout out to the comics where Lex eventually loses his hand because he wore a kryptonite ring for so many years that he got cancer and had to have it amputated, thereafter wearing a black glove.

[TECHWON]

I thought Clark was the one that "held off the darkness inside Lex", prolonging his inevitable slip to being evil. So, in a sense this was appropriate, as Lex had slipped into being the bad guy/lusting for power every bit as much in Clark's absence if not more.

MY POINT EXACTLY AND THIS WAS A NOD TO THE FLASH BACK OR FORESHADOW OF LEX DESTROYINH EVERYTHING AND BEING IN THE ASHES OF IT ALL. AND BRIANAC IS THAT THREAT AND WOULD SUCCEED TOO IF CLARK NEVER EXSISTED AND THIS IS ONE OF THOSE EPISODES THAT SEWS UP ALL HOLES IN THE SERIES INTO ONE EPISODE THAT CLARK IS NEEDED TO STOP PEOPLE LIKE LEX & BRAINAC AND I LOVE HOW THEY HAVE ROBERT PICARDO PLAYING THE LAST VERTIAS MEMBER (HE WAS THE DOCTOR ON STAR TREK VOYAGER)

[cwoodbears86]

if you remember back in the early seasons lex told clark that when they meet clark helped stop the dark path lex was on. without clark there lex probably became evil earlier than he actually did.

[Harrison_Bergeron]

Seems like the whole purpose of the episode went right over your head, we were led to think that Clark caused Lex to go bad throughout the show because that is what Clark thought, he blamed himself for all the big bads around him, this episode was Jor-El's way of showing him that that was not the case, and that the opposite was true, Clark may have made life harder on his friends and family, but he was making the world as a whole a better place, which was Jor-El's intent from the moment he decided to put Clark on the ship.

For the past four or five seasons the writers have been feeding us this whole road to darkness that ends up to Lex being the evil mythical Lex archetype that we've all come to love to hate. And, Smallville has been feeding us this line... that Clark had someway in affecting Lex's pathway to Darkness... And this episode has completely contradicted everything that we've been told... therefore I can no longer watch Smalliville. I'm finally gonna kick this monkey off my back. No more smallville... Goodbye ol' friend

[LexLuv180]

I never accepted the immature argument that ClarkMan was responsible for Lex's criminality/immorality/lack of scruples, so I didn't see it that was and if you look at the old episodes, Cassandra envisioned Lex pretty much as he was. (what was with the black glove thing?)

I know. The black glove is supposed to be in the comics because Lex wore the Kryptonite ring to ward off Superman. It gives him cancer, causing amputation of the finger, and thus the black glove. Why is he wearing it in this episode if there was never a Superman? Plot hole!

[faz]

Seriously, this episode didn't contradict anything. Lex was a whole lot more evil in this AU than in the real world, since last I checked he wasn't plotting to nuke the entire planet. Although if he did it wouldn't be all that surprising, since Lex sees himself as some sort of savior and I could see him trying to wipe out the world and start fresh. I think every pretty much every religion has a flood story or something similar where the respective deity wipes out the world because of their sins, Lex would be the type of guy to see himself as taking up that charge.

[overman504]

Seems like the whole purpose of the episode went right over your head, we were led to think that Clark caused Lex to go bad throughout the show because that is what Clark thought, he blamed himself for all the big bads around him, this episode was Jor-El's way of showing him that that was not the case, and that the opposite was true, Clark may have made life harder on his friends and family, but he was making the world as a whole a better place, which was Jor-El's intent from the moment he decided to put Clark on the ship.

You're absolutely right... the episode did go over my head.. the plots get muddled with strange twists and surprise endings... that this show makes absolutely no sense... smallville goes through themes like nobody's business... they need to make a clear simplified theme, which made superman the comic so great... thats why the first season was so great...

[smallvillerocks45]

I'm not saying I completely buy into the whole "Clark made Lex evil" concept either, but it does seem as though having Clark around in the real world means Lex has become a different kind of evil. In the AU, Lex was just Fine/Brainiac's puppet. In the real world context, Lex is very much his own person with twisted and skewed views of the world.

I've never consistently read the Supes comics (just a few here and there), but I certainly disagree that this episode contradicted the premise of the show or Superman mythos, for that matter. Besides, if I remember correctly, in the comic books Clark never even meets Lex until he becomes Superman. I could be wrong, but ultimately, Smallville, just offers a new take on the story- that is definitely nothing to call it quits over, IMO.

[Thrill_Seeker]

hahahaha, this is so embarassing for you overman504,
watch how really he didnt want to help but just another way that he could find out clarks secret. your are being incredibly narrow minded.
im not inuslting im just saying. if you actually think that the writers intention was to seem clark was responsible for lex going bad, im just in shock that any such person would even THINK that.

this episode DID NOT and if you want me to repeat it i will say it to your face.
IT DID NOT CONTRADICT,

ANYTHING.

I was almost disturbed by the attitudes of the fans sometimes, not 1% grateful, it makes me incredibly angry.
overman 504, cya later, you said you were leaving, so leave. I dont wanna hear you insulting the show like this again, please. its a disrespect to the entire series and if you dont like it well then theres nothing anyone can do to change your opinion and dont you try to change ours, please.
I hope one day you realise how wrong you were.
it is FACT, not opinion that this episode did not contradict lex luthor, and you are abondoning a perfectly fine series for a completely unrational reason.

[faz]

^Just a tad blunt there, but I agree that there are too many people up here week after week who only have negative stuff to say. I mean, I know SV has it's flaws, but to be honest, the only show I know of (at least of the ones I watch) that has near-perfect continuity is Lost. I've actually been impressed with the last several episodes this season, not so much Sleeper but I think it's actually pretty amazing that they conjured up a story line from nowhere, since it obviously wasn't planned from the beginning, and used it to tie up a bunch of plot holes from all of the last seven seasons. Is the show perfect? Of course not, but it's good, it entertains me from week to week, and that's the whole point. I think too many fans read too much into the show and have started to pick apart every detail of every episode so that its no longer enjoyable for them. But hey, I still love it so I'm not missing out.

[gameface25]

I have to agree, it isn't SV's fault that someone so narrow minded can't grasp the concept of what they are portraying.

If you want to leave, peace out. But don't blame the show for your shortcomings

[nk_84]

Well, take into account not Clark but the whole alien thing and Lex was still in contact with Kara and alien related information - so he would have chosen the same path except that Clark wasn't there to help prevent him or delay him into becoming evil - so Lex in AU was further along in his evilness than the Lex of the usual SV. No paradox - Lex was still exposed to an alien or possible unexplained things - he was in contact with Brainiac (unknowingly) so it's not hard to imagine that Lex was even more super evil in the AU.

Nothing to do with CK this time around but it was basically saying that Lex will be evil in whichever timeline by his own choices and ideas - he was just influenced to either accelerate those ideas or delay them in the various timelines/realities.

Think of it this way. How cheesy would it have been to have a Lex going around giving pretty ladies flowers and friendly gestures to passer's by while wearing his boy scout badges, handing out chash to the needy with a full head of wavey ginger hair!

Would have made me feel ill. i'm glad they showed us that no matter what, he's going to be demonic.

[Dor el]

I never accepted the immature argument that ClarkMan was responsible for Lex's criminality/immorality/lack of scruples, so I didn't see it that was and if you look at the old episodes, Cassandra envisioned Lex pretty much as he was. (what was with the black glove thing?)

Thank you. I agree that Clark is not responsible for Lex being evil. Lex didn't need any help to go down the evil path.

[dan_oc714]

if you notice.. he told Kara the same thing he always tells clark.. how his dad chose to die for protecting her secret.. how he loved her more than him..so obviously..it had the same effect...

[bklvr]

if you notice.. he told Kara the same thing he always tells clark.. how his dad chose to die for protecting her secret.. how he loved her more than him..so obviously..it had the same effect...

That's an interesting point. Does this show the effect growing up around a Kryptonian has on Lex (with his insatiable curiosity and love of power) OR is that just an excuse? Would Lex be evil anyway, given his twisted and abusive upbringing?

[dan_oc714]

That's an interesting point. Does this show the effect growing up around a Kryptonian has on Lex (with his insatiable curiosity and love of power) OR is that just an excuse? Would Lex be evil anyway, given his twisted and abusive upbringing?

i think.. it just another reason.. if there was never a meteor shower.. maybe he wouldn't have been as evil, or power hungry..however his upbringin in a house where he saw Lionel abuse His wife, Saw his mom kill Julian.. deal with Lionel Killing his parents... somehow would have brought out his darkside..

[SnowBird]

I love Smallville and there isn't anything anyone can say to turn me against it. I do think that it would be hard for a new viewer to make since of it just tuning in but could still enjoy watching a super made tv series. I have seen every episode as many have and can give their objective opinion. I say to those who only want to bash Smallville, leave and never come back. You are loosing a battle to thousands of fans that watch every week and continue to be loyal.

[Poweranimals]

It was actually Milton Fine this time that played a huge part in making Lex evil. So even though, Clark did play a part in Lex's decent, it would've happened anyway. It's essentially Lex's power struggle with his father and his own inherited desire for knowledge and power that ultimately corrupts him. Though I'd blame Lionel more than anyone.

[Lord_Balthaazar]

Are you f'ing kidding me? OP, did you notice anything different about Lex? Anything.. strange? Maybe complete lack of human emotion left in him! He's a million times worse in a world where Clark Kent never existed, he would shoot his own 'sister' kara and destroy the world if it gained him an advantage. Lex Luthor was born to do great and terrible things with or without Clark Kent, he's a Luthor. They havn't been telling us Clark made him go dark, they've been showing us moments where Clark brings out a little good thats left in him or makes him act like a decent human being. Take the scene near the end where Lex throws Clark a football and shares a common sincere concern for a mutual friend, that's because something inside him still see's Clark as his best friend. They didnt mislead ****, you're just seeing what you want to see and crying over nothing. Leave then.

[Harrison_Bergeron]

Some of you are going a bit far,THIS was great episode, arguabley the best of the series, but to say that Smallville is not worthy of bashing is just ridiculous. It is one of the most poorly written shows on television, if it were not for the Superman tie in he show would have died long ago.

Oh, and to the guy that said that LOST is the pinnacle of continuity: What did the smoke monster turn out to be?

[Yoshua]

For the past four or five seasons the writers have been feeding us this whole road to darkness that ends up to Lex being the evil mythical Lex archetype that we've all come to love to hate. And, Smallville has been feeding us this line... that Clark had someway in affecting Lex's pathway to Darkness... And this episode has completely contradicted everything that we've been told... therefore I can no longer watch Smalliville. I'm finally gonna kick this monkey off my back. No more smallville... Goodbye ol' friend



Goodbye?

Ummm sorry to be a spoilsport but no.


CLARK has guilt issues where he FEELS responsible, but Lex was evil well before Clark ever saved him. The process started with his father abusing him and training him to be the next MB when Lionel was gone. Clark has a positive impact in his life and for a time Lex MIGHT have found some form of redemption, but without Clark that option wasn't even there.


Without Clark his evil plans and mind went unimpeded. Lex Luthor has NEVER in any incarnation of Superman ever been portrayed as ever having any remorse for any of his actions.


Until Smallville, where he knew Clark as a young man and Clark gave him a path to light that he ultimately rejected by killing his father and then consciously destroying any good part that was left inside of him.


Without Clark there never would have been that little voice inside his head saying 'Dont Hurt Him! Clark Is Our Best Friend1' and 'You killed dad? How could you?'


That voice would have died out long ago.

[Jade4813]

I don't think the question really is that Lex would have been evil without Clark. Look at the shining squeaky clean person he was before he and Clark ever met. The question the show has really been trying to address to a certain degree is could Clark have helped PREVENT Lex from being evil. And I don't think he could have, and I think Clark is realizing it too.

You can't save everyone. Even when you're Superman (or going to be). We love Clark because he never stops trying though.

Lex is and always was on a self-destructive quest for power, for answers, for everything he could get. Even when he knew that seeking these answers would push Clark away, he continued to do it, knowing what the price would be.

No, Lex didn't need Clark's help to be evil. He needed Clark's help to try to be good, but even that was a losing battle. Because at the end of the day, "The path to darkness isn't a choice; it's a journey." And it's one he was going to take, with or without Clark. The only one capable of stopping Lex from being evil was going to be Lex himself (if anyone ever would), but he chose the different path.

[Tacitus]

It seems to me like the thread starter hasn't been paying attention. Lex turning evil has nothing to do with Clark, that's what Clark thinks, or should I say, was thinking. Whether Clark exists or doesn't exist, Lex turns evil, the difference is that in a world without Clark, Lex is even more evil. At least, that's how it appeared to me.

[Dor el]

What did the smoke monster turn out to be?

Tell me 'cause I quit watching due to lack of interest.

[Alexander III]

I know. The black glove is supposed to be in the comics because Lex wore the Kryptonite ring to ward off Superman. It gives him cancer, causing amputation of the finger, and thus the black glove. Why is he wearing it in this episode if there was never a Superman? Plot hole!

Maybe he's wearing it coz it looks cool?!

[Thrill_Seeker]

I have to agree, it isn't SV's fault that someone so narrow minded can't grasp the concept of what they are portraying.

If you want to leave, peace out. But don't blame the show for your shortcomings

exactly, im getting sick or reading people posts of just pure complaining, not even being reasonable and totally overreacting,

its alright if people dont like the episodes, sometimes I dont like the episode, fierce and hero, but people dont have to be so negative, it ruins it for us others who did like it

[MozartRequiem]

"did you notice anything different about Lex? Anything.. strange? Maybe complete lack of human emotion left in him! He's a million times worse in a world where Clark Kent never existed, he would shoot his own 'sister' kara and destroy the world if it gained him an advantage."

Exactly. I don't think, however, that Clark will make him a better person in the future. I think he'd still shoot and kill anyone who stands in his way in the real future where Clark/Superman exists. I took his lack of emotion to mean that maybe, in a world without Superman, he would not have as much enthusiasm or passion for his own existence. Superman completes him in a way. With Lionel gone, nobody's around to challenge him. But Superman gives him that challenge that he craves.

"Take the scene near the end where Lex throws Clark a football and shares a common sincere concern for a mutual friend, that's because something inside him still see's Clark as his best friend."

As nice as that sounds, I don't think Lex's motives are so altruistic. Remember "Descent", him burning to shreds the only humanity he had left in him? I think that means Lex has ulterior motives here with wanting to 'save' Lana. He wants to figure out what this 'alien' threat is to help him gain power and figure out who the Traveler is. I think, at this point, he couldn't care less about Lana.

----- Added 4 Minutes later -----

And, while many of us may disagree with the initial poster of this thread is saying, that's no need to be rude to him. I disagree with what this person's saying, but that doesn't mean this person doesn't have the right to voice their criticism.

I disagree, though, with the opinion in question, but I can understand where the poster is coming from. The main point remains though: Clark didn't create Lex Luthor's villainy. Lex did that all on his own. Lionel was, to quote Lex, "the devil that's haunted me since the day I was born." He was always trying to corrupt Lex, and without Clark around, he'd be totally messed up, perhaps at an even earlier age, since there was nobody good to hold him back from the darkness. Think back to season one. "I'm a different person there <in Metropolis>. A different person around my father." Clark: "If there's anyone who can chose who they want to be, Lex, it's you."

----- Added 5 Minutes later -----

Sure, Clark's distrust of Lex may have helped ADD to the darkness, but that doesn't mean he MADE Lex who he is.

[Servayne]

I don't agree.

Lex tried to be good after Clark saved him during the accident on the bridge - he was already on the path of evil. Clark held off the darkness with his friendship and Lex's admiration for Clark, but in the end the darkness was too powerful - Lex isn't as powerful as he would have been without Clark but Clark showed him some goodness in his life. We see the descent into darkness for Lex because Lex allowed the good in him to live on for a while.

[Harrison_Bergeron]

I just realized, it is also worth pointing out that Lex's father started favoring a Kryptonian a lot sooner in the AU than in the RW. Lex resented Lionel's attention to Clark, and that was one of the things that led Clark to believe he caused the evil. Clark may have staved off the evil in the 20 something year old Lex, but in the AU, Lionel found a Kryptonian when Lex was still a kid, so the higher level rejection would have started even sooner.

[Hopefulsuicide]

Clark's friendship always seemed like like a fork in the road... but it's still the same road

I mean, Lex blames Clark's lack of trust, but if Clark hadn't been there at all, his decent into darkness would have been even quicker and with a lot less doubt. Clark created doubt, but Lex is always going to end up trying to rule the world

I don't think anything has changed because of this AU story.

[All about Clark]

Seems like the whole purpose of the episode went right over your head, we were led to think that Clark caused Lex to go bad throughout the show because that is what Clark thought, he blamed himself for all the big bads around him, this episode was Jor-El's way of showing him that that was not the case, and that the opposite was true, Clark may have made life harder on his friends and family, but he was making the world as a whole a better place, which was Jor-El's intent from the moment he decided to put Clark on the ship.

My perspective is that it has always been Lex who has fed Clark the bull about it being Clark's fault that Lex is the way he is. That if he'd just been honest, he would have been a better man. However, I think that looking for clues kept Lex busy and delayed the evilness inside of him. That constant contact with Clark and his goodness had rubbed off. Clark does like to hold blame, but I don't believe Clark feels he made Lex evil. Clark has blamed himself for so many other things, he didn't need that one.

----- Added 23 Minutes later -----

I just realized, it is also worth pointing out that Lex's father started favoring a Kryptonian a lot sooner in the AU than in the RW. Lex resented Lionel's attention to Clark, and that was one of the things that led Clark to believe he caused the evil. Clark may have staved off the evil in the 20 something year old Lex, but in the AU, Lionel found a Kryptonian when Lex was still a kid, so the higher level rejection would have started even sooner.

I don't think you can assume that Kara was around in Lex's childhood, that simply was not portrayed. Kara was found at the dam, however, we have no idea what age Lex was at the time, he could have been 18 for all we know.

I still believe that Lex tried to be good to compete with Clark, to gain his friendship. And that delayed Lex in falling to the darkside sooner.

As for the kryptonian angle, Lionel practically ignored Clark in the first 2 seasons. And only favored him in the last 2 seasons.

I think we have to remember that in this whole series, Lex has been a grown adult, not a child.