"That is not my mission"

[xrayvision]

Something that interested me was when Jor-El said "That is not my mission" after Clark asked him "What happened to dedicating your life to helping others".

This shows that the Jor-El programming in the FOS does not have the same motives as the real Jor-El.

So what is the FOS Jor-El's mission? Is it to discipline Clark & Clark only? Then again, he did help Martha & Lois in Zod. Or is he using reverse logic to get Clark to do what he wants (meaning that it is Zor-El's will in there)? Or could it be something completely different?

I'm interested in hearing what people here think about FOS Jor-El's real mission.

[moviefan2k4]

Presumably, the Fortress AI's mission is to lead Clark to his Kryptonian destiny, no matter the cost. Because its not human, it feels no remorse, sympathy, or pity. It simply exists for one purpose: to train Clark into the hero he will someday become.

the biggest problem is Clark basing many of his decisions on emotional impulse, rather than clear thought. And every time, some terrible consequence happens. Jor-El has warned him countless times, and yet Clark still disobeys, because he's afraid of losing what humanity he has left.

[xrayvision]

The problem with this though, is that Clark/Superman traditionally does act on his emotion to save people that he feels very fondly about. He doesn't like seeing humans suffering. He risks his own wellbeing to save them even when a supervillian is attacking. So this would mean that this Jor-El will never get what he wants with Clark. And Clark's destiny as Superman will have to be done some other way than following the will of this Jor-El (which is actually what I want). But how will they be able to prove that all of a sudden by acting like the comics counterpart (using his love for humans to save them) the world will not be put in danger once they pursue his development?

[MidgardDragon]

I think the Jor-El AI's mission is simply to watch over Clark and be sure the he reaches the destiny that Jor-El and Lara envisioned for him. I don't think Jor-El realized just how tough the AI would be on Clark, though, or the drastic measures it would take against humans. The AI is yet another flawed character, which is part of what makes it interesting to me.

[xrayvision]

I wonder if the AI will ever accept him for what he is? I guess it will have to. Eventually, it will probably determine that he is ready and even though he is not the ideal son as far as the program was supposed to raise him, he had enough control and knowledge to handle himself in tough situations.

This is the main reason I want a Clark vs. Kal-El war. I want Clark to prove to Jor-El that his ideal warrior (Kal-El) against Clark would ultimately not win and that Clark with everything he's been through and learned is stronger than what anyone else wants from him.

[ginnyfan]

Originally posted by MidgardDragon
I think the Jor-El AI's mission is simply to watch over Clark and be sure the he reaches the destiny that Jor-El and Lara envisioned for him. I don't think Jor-El realized just how tough the AI would be on Clark, though, or the drastic measures it would take against humans. The AI is yet another flawed character, which is part of what makes it interested to me.

I agree.

[xrayvision]

It still amazes me how similar the AI is to the Zor-El replicant in Blue & the real Zor-El we saw in Lara. Kara was against Zor-El because what he was willing to do to humans (with the eclipse) and just like MidgardDragon pointed out, the AI has also done bad things to humans to get what he/it wants. Both the AI and the Zor-El replicant were anti-Kara. And the AI even created a false Kara in the past using Lindsay Harrison. I hope we will get a nice tie-up of all these matters.

[Vergon6]

What basically I think what happened was that when Jor-El infused his essence (or rather a copy of it somehow) into the program, his 'humanity' (or should I say Kryptonianity) was lost. So what's left is just a computer program with all the memories of Jor-El and the directives it was programmed with, but without the soul.

[heromyth]

"and yet Clark still disobeys, because he's afraid of losing what humanity he has left"

You hit the nail on the head, Clark disobeys because he's afraid of becoming a cold, ruthless, Kryptonian automaton if he fully submits to his biological father. He likens the decision to embrace his destiny and heritage to a kind of death. He knows submitting to his father means abandoning Smallville, his family, his friends, the only home he’s ever known and ironically, paradoxically, despite equating the choice of embracing his destiny with death, Clark will have to face his own, not mortality but immortality and the fact that he’ll out live everyone he cares about save for Kara. Clark isn’t a BDA; he’s a 21 year old wrestling with the same issues anyone his age faces only to an exponential, literally cosmic degree. I can easily see the Clark of Smallville becoming the Superman of the mythos, the fact is no one has seen the canonical Superman at 21 which is what makes Smallville so compelling; the show is about the “silent years” or the wilderness Superman (along with all mythic heroes, most notably Christ Himself which many see Superman as an allegorical type of) must endure prior to his coronation. So, dial down the BDA vitriol (I’m directing this partially at myself), it sells the show and it’s lead character short.

[xrayvision]

It could be that his soul is inside Lionel. But how would it have gotten there? The stones were untouched for centuries, so it couldn't be from Commencement when Jor-El touched the stone. Though that's the only opportunity I see. But how does Jor-El's soul (or a more accurate version of the Jor-El AI) get to Lionel by touching something that Jor-El never laid his hands on? We know the cave could have sent a modified copy of the AI to the altar, but the cave Jor-El never showed that passion before.

What does make sense is if the AI had 2 stages. The first stage was to be ruthless so Clark could unite the stones to prevent Earth's destruction. The 2nd stage was a version of the AI that closely resembled the will of the actual Jor-El that would pop out once the FOS was created and the world was safe from the stones ending up in the wrong hands. My guess is that Lionel interfered with the uploading of the 2nd stage of the AI to the crystal that formed the FOS, making him get possessed with that AI. This makes a LOT of sense!! Notice how since season 5, Lionel seems to be channeling a much more humane Jor-El. I think he will eventually transfer that AI that is making him be the emissary to the FOS. Maybe Lionel's death will make this happen.

[Nospam]

Originally posted by MidgardDragon
I think the Jor-El AI's mission is simply to watch over Clark and be sure the he reaches the destiny that Jor-El and Lara envisioned for him. I don't think Jor-El realized just how tough the AI would be on Clark, though, or the drastic measures it would take against humans. The AI is yet another flawed character, which is part of what makes it interesting to me.

*nods*

However, I know if by the end of Smallville we don't see the real, compassionate, loving Jor-El we've expected to see all along a lot of people are going to be disappointed.

I know I will if that that is what happens.

[MidgardDragon]

Unfortunately I don't think we will quite see that Jor-El. I do think the AI may take a more friendly turn, perhaps via xrayvision's theory. I'm also pretty sure we'll get to see Jor-El in the flesh at some point, considering all of the El family they've brought in so far. But yeah, as far as not seeing the "compassionate" Jor-El, that's one thing I can understand people being disappointed in. I think we'll get something close to what we want, but not quite there, though.

[ginnyfan]

I was glad to see Clark challenge Jor-el when the AI claimed that it's mission was not to help people. That's a refreshing change. Clark arguing that Jor-el is there to help people. It's the first time Jor-el seemed to... reveal limits.

I'm curious about what Clark's punishment will be.

[xrayvision]

Originally posted by ginnyfan
I was glad to see Clark challenge Jor-el when the AI claimed that it's mission was not to help people. That's a refreshing change. Clark arguing that Jor-el is there to help people. It's the first time Jor-el seemed to... reveal limits.

I'm curious about what Clark's punishment will be.

Yeah, that's one thing I really liked about this episode. Clark was finally defending his actual father and seperating the FOS version from the real deal. I hope they go further into this.

[LunaItaliana]

Originally posted by xrayvision
Something that interested me was when Jor-El said "That is not my mission" after Clark asked him "What happened to dedicating your life to helping others".



Could the meaning of this be another? When I first heard that I thought Jor-El was saying "this is not my mission... it's yours ", since we know Clark's life will be dedicated to save others.

Probably I may misunderstand watching the episodes in english, which is my second language.

[Kryptonian-Ronin]

Perhaps Jor-El felt that his "softness" was the undoing of Kyrpton, Zor-El hints as much, and he doesn't want to make the "same mistake twice' in Clark's case.

Though it seems that regardless of what Jor-El says and the consequences of Clark ignoring his views, Clark does whatever he wants anyways.

Truly a Clark kent of the 21st century.

[Guidron]

There's been a lot of great responses so far.

I think it' has a lot to do with the fact that ultimately, the fortress Jor-El is a computer program. While AI can be extremely intelligent, it doesn't have the benefit/downfall of emotions. As somebody said before, when his essence was placed in the fortress, his Humanity/Kryptonianity didn't come with it.

I think the AI's mission is to educate Clark about his kryptonian heritage and it may be trying to ensure he doesn't make the same mistakes that Jor-El did.

Or perhaps it's there to play 'Devil's Advocate'. Half the time, even though Clark disobeys Jor-El, and suffers the consequences, a greater good or lesson is acheived.

Perhaps it's all actually part of his training?

[xrayvision]

Originally posted by Guidron
Perhaps it's all actually part of his training?

I'd call it the preliminary round of the training.

But you reminded me of something else. In Kara, Jor-El said step 1 is to watch out for Kara. Now that this was done and Kara is gone in Detroit, is that part over, meaning Clark will proceed to the next step of the training (at least what Jor-El expects of him)?

Realistically, I don't see him starting the guts of the training until he finds Kara because he will have that at the back of his mind.

[WickedJenn]

Originally posted by xrayvision
Something that interested me was when Jor-El said "That is not my mission" after Clark asked him "What happened to dedicating your life to helping others".

This shows that the Jor-El programming in the FOS does not have the same motives as the real Jor-El.

So what is the FOS Jor-El's mission? Is it to discipline Clark & Clark only? Then again, he did help Martha & Lois in Zod. Or is he using reverse logic to get Clark to do what he wants (meaning that it is Zor-El's will in there)? Or could it be something completely different?

I'm interested in hearing what people here think about FOS Jor-El's real mission.

In the Superman films, Clark left Smallville after his father died and began his training right away in the FOS. In THAT version Jor-El wasn't touched upon too much (that I can remember) and when he was, he didn't seem quite so, for lack of a better word, "cold" as he does in Smallville. That's where the area gets gray, since they didn't touch much on the inbetween from when Clark first began his training in the FOS to actually becoming Superman.

Now in Smallville, we can see more of that. If Zor-El wanted human annhilation and Kryptonian domination, there has to be some other underlying purpose Jor-El has. In Superman Returns you hear Jor-El's voice from the first movie and in it he says about humans "...they only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you... my only son."--source IMDB.com.

So, assuming in general this is still Jor-El's purpose--perhaps, he wants Clark to see that there is more that he is meant to do than just traipse around Smallville and Metropolis...to see the bigger picture, to be cliche. Meaning his destiny is far greater than what he's been doing, and Jor-El's plan is to get him to see this. I think it's just Jor-El's methods that are off-putting.

Edited to add: referring back to the Jor-El quote above...Clark's destiny in that capacity is more than just saving people, it's to be an example to the human race. To show that truth and justice overshadow the evil and that if more chose to live like that, the world would benefit a lot more.

[xrayvision]

You definitely have a point. Jor-El could be trying to show him (again) that there are others in the world besides him and the ones closest to him, and that Clark has to pay attention to them too.

The only thing is, I wish Clark would know this for himself and not need someone else to tell him or force upon him.

[WickedJenn]

Originally posted by xrayvision
You definitely have a point. Jor-El could be trying to show him (again) that there are others in the world besides him and the ones closest to him, and that Clark has to pay attention to them too.

The only thing is, I wish Clark would know this for himself and not need someone else to tell him or force upon him.

Yes, I do agree with you on the latter there. It is a good thing he has emotions, but I feel Jor-El is pointing out to him that if he ALWAYS lets them get in the way, he ends up hurting more people than he helps.

[FotW]

So far I think AI Jor-El's "mission" is to play mind games with Clark and make his human life miserable so that he'll stop wanting a "normal" life on Earth. That is why Jor-El arranged it so Clark's decision to save Lana from death would up killing Jonathan.
Or Jor-El's mission is to kill Lana again! Since she didn't die in "Reckoning" and Clark still spends time playing house with Lana and not getting down to Kryptonian business. Jor-El probably wants her dead!
Sorry, I don't like the AI Jor-El much. lol

[WickedJenn]

It's ok, I don't particularly like this version of Jor-El either. I liked the movie version much better.

[xrayvision]

I hope my 2 stage Jor-El AI theory is true, because that would explain a lot. The main thing I want is Jor-El *not* being responsible for creating Superman (i.e. Clark the hero who saves the world).

[WickedJenn]

Originally posted by xrayvision
I hope my 2 stage Jor-El AI theory is true, because that would explain a lot. The main thing I want is Jor-El *not* being responsible for creating Superman (i.e. Clark the hero who saves the world).

This is just a feeling, but I do think that the main creation of Superman is more Clark's doing. Frex, he took Jor-El's teachings and incorporated them into what he felt he should be.

So I agree with you there.

[xrayvision]

I hope the way they do it is by having Clark use the morals he got from the Kents, combine that with his Kryptonian powers on Earth & Jor-El's information on Kryptonian technology (the biggest being the Eradicator), his information on the types of kryptonite and lessons he learned on Krypton to become Superman.

So Jor-El in that sense would teach him about the full functionality of the FOS, its crystals, and the Phantom Zone and make him aware of what I call the kryptonite spectrum. I would also like him to teach Clark the history of Krypton to make him aware of danger signs of Krypton's destruction that Jor-El saw in hindsight that may also appear on Earth so that Clark as Superman would recognize them right away.

[WickedJenn]

Originally posted by xrayvision
I hope the way they do it is by having Clark use the morals he got from the Kents, combine that with his Kryptonian powers on Earth & Jor-El's information on Kryptonian technology (the biggest being the Eradicator), his information on the types of kryptonite and lessons he learned on Krypton to become Superman.

So Jor-El in that sense would teach him about the full functionality of the FOS, its crystals, and the Phantom Zone and make him aware of what I call the kryptonite spectrum. I would also like him to teach Clark the history of Krypton to make him aware of danger signs of Krypton's destruction that Jor-El saw in hindsight that may also appear on Earth so that Clark as Superman would recognize them right away.

I think it was season 5 when Jor-El was "downloading" Clark with Kryptonian knowledge, when he found out Chloe was in the FOS. I'm guessing that was the start.

But your ideas sound very well thought-out to me, especially the first part.

Sheesh, I can't type today.

[xrayvision]

Thanks.

[ClarksGal]

Originally posted by xrayvision
I hope the way they do it is by having Clark use the morals he got from the Kents, combine that with his Kryptonian powers on Earth & Jor-El's information on Kryptonian technology (the biggest being the Eradicator), his information on the types of kryptonite and lessons he learned on Krypton to become Superman.

So Jor-El in that sense would teach him about the full functionality of the FOS, its crystals, and the Phantom Zone and make him aware of what I call the kryptonite spectrum. I would also like him to teach Clark the history of Krypton to make him aware of danger signs of Krypton's destruction that Jor-El saw in hindsight that may also appear on Earth so that Clark as Superman would recognize them right away.

I completely agree with you on this. And I want Clark to incorporate his human-learned stuff and his Kryptonian-learned stuff into his own philosophy, making him completely unique and following his own morality, which has influences from both.

[All about Clark]

Originally posted by xrayvision
So Jor-El in that sense would teach him about the full functionality of the FOS, its crystals, and the Phantom Zone and make him aware of what I call the kryptonite spectrum. I would also like him to teach Clark the history of Krypton to make him aware of danger signs of Krypton's destruction that Jor-El saw in hindsight that may also appear on Earth so that Clark as Superman would recognize them right away.

I think before this though that Jor-el has to show Clark the pitfalls of relying on his emotions. I'm sure that Jor-el learned this aspect while visiting Earth back in Relic and saw that humans are such emotional creatures and knew that this would create problems for Clark in being manipulated.

I took Jor-el statement about his mission was that he was only programed to help Clark fulfill his destiny of being Earth's protector.

[xrayvision]

^^Yes. That would be a way of having everything that's happened be worth the price of having Superman around.

[Poweranimals]

I think that Jor-El feels guilty for letting Krypton get destroyed. I think that may be why Jor-El is being so hard on Clark, because he doesn't want the same thing to happen on Earth.

[WickedJenn]

Originally posted by Poweranimals
I think that Jor-El feels guilty for letting Krypton get destroyed. I think that may be why Jor-El is being so hard on Clark, because he doesn't want the same thing to happen on Earth.

That's interesting, I didn't think of that...it could very well be. And it would make sense why Jor-El is so intent on the acceleration of Clark's training, that would definitely be a factor. So it would be no wonder with all the work it takes to "learn" how to "save a planet".

[svtwamedfan05]

My opinion on this Jor-El was on a mission to save his people on Krypton however once he died his sole mission was to train Clark and help him to accept Clark's mission to save Earth. Jor-El is no longer alive so now he only wants one thing to help Clark save his own planet. So in actual reality he wants to help Clark save people and in doing so he not only completes his mission but helps Clark with his own mission. That in itself let's us know that Jor-El still is a good guy

[Blue screen of death]

after reading all these previous posts the one thing that stands out in my mind is what Raya said to clark. "You haven't done the training your father wanted for you? Earth is going to suffer the same fate of krypton if nothing is done." Or something along those lines. Just seems that Clark needs to get the FoS training downloaded to his brain to actually understand what is at stake. All the knowledge of the 28 known galaxies or atleast all the knowledge krypton had is pretty damn usefull and there is so much that Kal just clearly doesn't get because his world view is "too small"

[STFanatic]

He might even learn journalism in case he needs it in the future.

[WickedJenn]

Originally posted by Blue screen of death
after reading all these previous posts the one thing that stands out in my mind is what Raya said to clark. "You haven't done the training your father wanted for you? Earth is going to suffer the same fate of krypton if nothing is done." Or something along those lines. Just seems that Clark needs to get the FoS training downloaded to his brain to actually understand what is at stake. All the knowledge of the 28 known galaxies or atleast all the knowledge krypton had is pretty damn usefull and there is so much that Kal just clearly doesn't get because his world view is "too small"

OOH good one, I totally forgot about Raya and that she had said that to Clark...

[M0RGAN]

Originally posted by MidgardDragon
I think the Jor-El AI's mission is simply to watch over Clark and be sure the he reaches the destiny that Jor-El and Lara envisioned for him. I don't think Jor-El realized just how tough the AI would be on Clark, though, or the drastic measures it would take against humans. The AI is yet another flawed character, which is part of what makes it interesting to me. I think Jor' El never realized just how bull headed his son would turn out to be. The AI can't be expected to go beyond it's programming. Odds are Jor' El genuinely thought Clark would fully embrace his Kryptonian heritage & once his training was over with Clark would combine both his Human upbringing & his Kryptonian teachings to mold him into the man he is destined to be.

[MidgardDragon]

Originally posted by M0RGAN
I think Jor' El never realized just how bull headed his son would turn out to be. The AI can't be expected to go beyond it's programming. Odds are Jor' El genuinely thought Clark would fully embrace his Kryptonian heritage & once his training was over with Clark would combine both his Human upbringing & his Kryptonian teachings to mold him into the man he is destined to be.

If that were the case then Jor-El would be just as much at fault as Clark. Jor-El expecting a boy raised with all of these human emotions to just accept a completely alien destiny is pretty far-fetched. I think a flaw in the programming is more logical.

[xrayvision]

Or like I theorized, the programming is fractured (partly in the FOS, partly in Lionel). Then again, this would be a flaw I guess. :)

[Mischael12]

We keep assuming that Kryptonians are severely different than humans. From what I've seen the show goes out its way to try to say Human emotions this and that, but honestly i just find that idiotic. Hell the portrayal of Clark's mother shows that they had emotions, and sense of honor.

Kara herself even in the beginning was still rather human. They come off more like soldiers than alien races.

[Titan27]

Jor-El's true mission is to help Clark fullfill his destiny and become the "protector" of Earth; then his son will pick up the "torch" and protect others. Until Clark becomes Superman - Jor-El's #1 priority is to make Clark become a man/hero. I truly don't blame Jor-El for wanting to punish Clark. Clark always thinks badly about Jor-El despite what everyone else who has met his father tells him AND Clark still never takes his father's advice after all these years. Season 2 = Martha's miscarriage due to Clark's actions, Season 4 = Clark doesn't retrieve the crystals until the second meteor storm arrives, arriving only to blame Jor-El for it.Season 5 = Clark doesn't return to the FOS at dusk after rescuing Chloe therefore becomes mortal and dies not too soon after forcing Jor-El to use Jonathan's life force to bring Clark back to life, also in Season 5; Clark doesn't kill Lex after he acquires Kryptonian powers, and instead releases Zod by destroying Fine with the dagger, which results Zod being restored to "physical state" and Zob being released upon Earth but not before Clark being exiled to the PZ and the FOS losing it's power and Jor-El's ability to look after his son. Season 6 = Clark avoids coming to the fortress to try to help his father come back after the fortress is almost destroyed. Then also Clark "allows" the last wraith to use Clark's DNA to become stronger than Clark is: what Jor-El told MM was his fear according to the MM.
- Clark never listens to Jor-El even when Jor-El gives Clark advice on what to do trying to spare Clark before he makes mistakes. Showing Jor-El that Clark believes he is smarter than his father; then after Clark realizes he SHOULD have listened to Jor-El. Clark comes crawling back to Jor-El begging him to fix his mess.

That's what upset me about the Season 5 storyline involving Jonathan's death; after Lana died; Jor-El told Clark that it is natural for humans to eventually die, but Clark couldn't bear to lose Lana. I only believe Jor-El allowed Clark to go back to fix it, because Jor-El either rememberd Louise from Season 3 "Relic" or Jor-El believed that if Lana did in fact die, the damage to his son would be irreparable. Then after the second time through after Jonathan dies, Clark brings his adoptive father's body to the FOS demanding the same thing showing that Clark probably would have gone through the same process hundreds of times until someone died he would be willing to sacrifice.

Then after this episode Clark comes to Jor-El with nothing but praise for Jor-El trying to get his father's help to fix another mistake that Clark caused. Then Jor-El states quite plainly something all of us fans who have been watching the show from the beginning know already: Kal El you don't seem to learn any lessons from your past mistakes. Something we all know: Clark never seems to learn anything!! Not even after Jonathan's death he still hasn't learned. Jor-El has every right not to help his son find Kara. For once Clark should have to fix his own mistake and find Kara himself.

BTW - I don't really blame Clark on most of these mistakes he has made especially some of the things Jor-El has done to him in the past; however I for some reason tend to really like Jor-El almost as much as Superman. After this episode I just really sympathized with Jor-El for not helping Clark out of this situation. Let Clark learn that his actions have consequences not only on himself but on others and his father: Jor-El can't just click the RESTART button every time; so Clark can get it right the second time. Teaching Clark that he is going to have to make the right decision the first time. Jor-El is trying to teach his son the lessons of the hero that you may make mistakes however you have to face the consequences of those mistakes thereby growing from them so as not to make that same mistake. AND the people you love will eventually die which Clark still doesn't grasp. Even in Season 1 "Hourglass" the vision showed Clark alone in a graveyard. Clark has known since the first Season that he will always be alone in some respect except for his biological father & mother. His actions show that he couldn't give a damn about his biological father.

REMEMBER- This would be how a human father would interpret these actions by a son; and Clark prides himself on his human emotions so he should have to suffer the consequences of his actions if he were human. Which I think Jor-El is doing to him. I believe that Jor-El simply stated to Clark, I won't help you find Kara" - learn from your mistakes and then the white light just teleported Clark back to Smallville.

[BadToad]

Boy, I love how there is so much passionate defense of Jor-El, with loads of bashing on Clark, and yet so many of the details seem to be left out.

Season 2 = Martha's miscarriage due to Clark's actions,

Something a 16 year old Clark did because a disembodied voice told him he had to leave everything he knew, and everyone he loved, and when he refused, threw him around and branded him.

Season 4 = Clark doesn't retrieve the crystals until the second meteor storm arrives, arriving only to blame Jor-El for it.


Season 4 comes after the conclusion of S3, where Jor-El sends a girl, who turns out to be essentialy a zombie, to lie to Clark and say she's Kryptonian, who then goes on to murder someone. And when Clark is lured to the caves by blatantly false promises, Jor-El attacks Jonathan Kent for trying to tell Clark the truth. He sucks Clark into a cave wall, brainwashes him, strips him of his memory and identity, disposes of the girl he was using , and leaves Jonathan Kent on life support, in a coma.

Oh yeah, Of Course, why wouldn't we want Clark to immediately turn around in S4 and just follow this guys orders. I mean, he's only a murderer. He's only a liar. He only attacked Clark's father, and brainwashed him. But No, instead its bad, stupid Clark who won't do as Jor-El says. :rolleyes:

Not that the entire stones storyline made a lick of sense anyway.

Season 5 = Clark doesn't return to the FOS at dusk after rescuing Chloe therefore becomes mortal and dies not too soon after forcing Jor-El to use Jonathan's life force to bring Clark back to life,

Clark doesn't return to the fortress because he's helping someone who is badly injured. And Jor-El immediately makes him mortal. This is the choice of the AI Jor-El, not Clark's choosing. Bringing Clark back from the dead was the choice of the AI Jor-El, not Clark. Here's another way to look at it...if Jor-El hadn't taken away Clark's powers as soon as the sun went down, instead of maybe waiting to see if Clark was delayed and had an explanation, then Clark wouldn't have been shot and died while trying to help people, and then Jor-El never would've had to restore his life by marking someone else for death.

Season 5; Clark doesn't kill Lex after he acquires Kryptonian powers, and instead releases Zod by destroying Fine with the dagger, which results Zod being restored to "physical state" and Zob being released upon Earth but not before Clark being exiled to the PZ and the FOS losing it's power and Jor-El's ability to look after his son.

Because Hey, who amongst us doesn't want a Superman who can plunge a dagger into a human being and kill them? Yes, even for a greater good. I was not aware that this was even in the realm of Clark Kent/Superman's moral makeup.

And please explain to me how murdering Lex, which is what it would've been, would have prevented Brainiac from just going out and getting another vessel. Would Clark have to murder them too?

Season 6 = Clark avoids coming to the fortress to try to help his father come back after the fortress is almost destroyed.

The whole fortress storyline was oddly dropped after the S6 episode Fallout. Did Clark ever go back and get it powered up again? Who knows, but seeing as how he's back in the fortress in S7, he must've done it at some time. It just occured on Offscreensville.

Then also Clark "allows" the last wraith to use Clark's DNA to become stronger than Clark is: what Jor-El told MM was his fear according to the MM.

And what the heck else was Clark supposed to do? Really, someone please tell me. For one thing, both MM and Lionel as Jor-El's vessel withheld this information from Clark till the very last minute. And then it becomes perfectly clear that neither of them can take on this phantom, who is going around and killing people that he temporarily inhabits. What do you want Clark to do? Hide out, so the phantom can't get his DNA? Say "screw those humans, I gotta protect myself here"? What are the options for him?

Clark never listens to Jor-El even when Jor-El gives Clark advice on what to do trying to spare Clark before he makes mistakes. Showing Jor-El that Clark believes he is smarter than his father; then after Clark realizes he SHOULD have listened to Jor-El. Clark comes crawling back to Jor-El begging him to fix his mess.

Clark maybe doesn't listen blindly to Jor-El because there's a history in his relationship with him. A history that involves branding, and attacks on his father, and brainwashing. And in this episode, Clark fixed his own mess for the most part, no help from Jor-El. Clark was the one that was determined to get back to the FOS. Clark was the one that brought along kryptonite. Clark was the one that destroyed the crystal. I don't really think asking Jor-El to help him find Kara seems like too much to ask. But if he doesn't want to help, then thats fine too. Just let go Clark do it himself then.

That's what upset me about the Season 5 storyline involving Jonathan's death; after Lana died; Jor-El told Clark that it is natural for humans to eventually die, but Clark can't bear to lose Lana. I only believe Jor-El allowed Clark to go back to fix it, because Jor-El either remember Louise from Season 3 "Relic" or Jor-El believed that if Lana did in fact die, the damage to his son would be irreparable. Then after the second time through after Jonathan dies, Clark brings his adoptive father's body to the FOS demanding the same thing showing that Clark probably would have gone through the same process hundreds of times until someone died he would be willing to sacrifice.

But what you ignore in this paragraph is that it was AI Jor-El that gave Clark the means to turn back time in the first place. You dangle that sort of thing in front of any griefstriken person, and most of them are going to take it. If its a bad thing to use the back in time crystal, then just don't produce it. But again, for reasons that are beyond me, AI Jor-El is never to blame for anything

Then after this episode Clark comes to Jor-El with nothing but praise for Jor-El trying to get his father's help to fix another mistake that Clark caused.

Clark is praising Jor-El because he keeps being told by other people what a great man Jor-El was in the flesh, and he can't understand why AI Jor-El is so different.

Then Jor-El states quite plainly something all of us fans who have been watching the show from the beginning know already: Kal El you don't seem to learn any lessons from your past mistakes. Something we all know: Clark never seems to learn anything!!

All of us know this? Really? No, not all of us. Sure, I get frustrated with some aspects of Clark's development, and I do believe the show has used a ton of contrivances to stall him. But I also don't believe he never learns anything. And I don't believe that him making a mistake means he's stupid. It means he makes mistakes, just like everyone else. It was impulsive and foolish to plunge the blue crystal into the fortress console. It was also motivated by his mothers voice calling out to him for help. Something that would seem to me to be unique from his past experiances. No matter what, Clark or Superman isn't always going to get it right the first time. No one is perfect. Not even a young Superman.

Jor-El has every right not to help his son find Kara. For once Clark should have to fix his own mistake and find Kara himself.

I'm cool with that. Shut the AI Jor-El down, and let Clark grow into his identity on his own. I've never been fond of the whole "10 year training" thing anyway, and certainly not with an AI Jor-El thats done the things its done. I'd much rather see Clark finding Kara on his own, with his own resources. I want to see a Clark that grows into being Superman not because his dead father picked out a destiny for him, but because its something he chooses to do himself. JMHO

[Javierocker]

I agree with most of what u are saying, I think the problem as most ppl have mentioned here is that its an AI and not the real Jor-El. I don't think that AI gets that Clark is still young and perhaps on Krypton 16 wasn't considered still young. But by Earth standers its not right 4 the AI 2 do most of the things it has done 2 Clark.

But there is a double edge sword here at certain times. Reckoning is a prime example 4 this, I'm not saying Jor-El was right, however Superhero's need trails such as this. It teaches them that regardless of there power they can't save everyone and that they have 2 put others before themselves. Jor-El gave the choice but warned that nature would find a balance and Clark couldn't stop it. A hero needs 2 learn that they must put others before themselves which is something Clark did not do. I do not agree with Jor-El's choice of teaching Clark this lesson, but the lesson did have 2 be there in some form.

As much as I can relate 2 Clark and his longing 2 see his mother, Blue showed that the lesson of Reckoning didn't sink in. All Clark seemed 2 pick up from Reckoning is that Lana got in 2 deep with Lex and telling her the truth was dangerous. This is true but he missed the bigger picture that I think Jor-El was trying 2 show him. He ended making the same mistake over again and this time the consequence was bigger. While I don't agree with Jor-El methods , Clark does need 2 see this bigger picture here and hopefully Jor-El's intention is 2 finally teach him that. Hopefully the consequence is meant 2 accomplish, I think the problem is that u can't punish others 2 teach Clark a lesson, u have 2 teach it the lesson directly, not indirectly.

This is why I like the theories of Clark seeing the world without him. Or the future should Clark not accept his destiny, this is teaching Clark directly and hopefully what can bring closer 2 his destiny.

[Titan27]

Badtoad. All the points you made are extremely valid. As I mentioned I didn't blame Clark for most of the decisions he made the first time through. And also we have to take into consideration that he doesn't have the full picture with all the facts that we do. Since we've seen all the episodes and the parts that don't include him.

However: with regards to your counterargument to the Season 4 storyline that I mentioned, remember Clark remembered everything Jor-El taught him after he was reprogrammed by his father. Evidence is when Jonathan asks Clark how it felt to fly. Yes, Jor-El attacking Jonathan is the biggest argument used against this specific instance. But I don't think Jor-El would have killed Jonathan. But Clark of course couldn't have taken that chance, and everything Jor-El had done to Clark before would have led him to believe Jor-El wasn't lying. Remeber the writers still wanted us to think Jor-El was evil at this point. The girl was killed in the first meteor shower like Jonathan told Clark; she was just in a physical form similar to what Lara and Zor-El were in "Blue" How is Jor-El a murderer? The meteor hit the girl not Jor-El? Jor-El didn't have control over the metoer's trajectory. He was killed on krypton; and the part of the caves he possesed hadn't been opened up yet. Jor-El didn't suck Clark into the wall, Jor-El and the fake Kara said Clark could only go if he wanted to, and Clark wanted to eventually to save Jonathan's life.
- Season 5 with the mortal thing, yes was an immediate thing. To show Clark that his "broken promise" has consequences not 2 hours down the road but right away. BTW - bringing Clark back to life isn't as bad as you make it out to be. Because Jor-El states that eventually someone close to you will die. The reason Jonathan didn't die the first time through the events is because after Lana died he was with Clark in the hospital where Lana would be pronounced dead; since Clark would want to be with her for as long as possible. Jonathan only dies the second time because since Lana doesn't die he arrives at his house and dies as a result from a heart attack from the shock of learning Lionel Luthor knows his son's secret. Which is why he didn't die the first time; because he never meet Lionel the first time through the events. Remember Jor-El also believes that the events that would unfold with Fine and Zod would be more important than running around and saving Lana/Chloe or a boy in the middle of the road. Jor-El never marked anyone for death; he just simply uses the "life force" of someone close to Clark in the hope that Clark will learn a lesson. From Jor-El's POV because why not use some random person who died during the meteor shower. Also the dagger thing is similar, because even Lionel said if one can be sacrificed for the many it must be done. Lionel and Jor-El almost always have the same POV on matters which is why Lionel is Jor-El's "Oracle" & "Vessel." It obviously is in the relm of Clark's/Superman's moral realm if he was going to kill Lex after he believed Lana was died at Lex's hand. Your last question is what makes this argument fall apart because Fine would have gone and gotten someone else. But that's not what happened in the show; so we can only discuss what actually happened. Clark Kent/Superman does eventually murder. In the comics he kills General Zod and 2 of his followers. Not the giant and girl from Superman 2.
Remember when Raya died she said she used the crystal/ or was able to fix the FOS to give it enough power because after Clark's holds the \S/ tablet thing, and tells Martha he is going to accept his destiny; the last frame from the episode shows the FOS lighting up with "life." The wraith thing I shouldn't have mentioned because even I couldn't come up with any guess that would make Clark rationally avoid what happened. Because the MM and Lionel never tell Clark about it, or does Clark got to Jor-EL for information about the escapee's he is after. Due to lack of episodes, money, and episode length of course.
-Hindsight is 20/20 so the only reason Jor-El branded Clark is because he knew what Clark was going to do; because the brand disappears after the red K is destroyed. Clark only fixed his own mess because his actions caused Jor-El to be 'banished" from the FOS. Also Clark was determined because his actions could have resulted in the deaths of his "phantom" bilogical mother, cousin, Lana, Lionel, and the all the humans in the world who were going to be killed by his uncle.

But what you ignore in this paragraph is that it was AI Jor-El that gave Clark the means to turn back time in the first place. You dangle that sort of thing in front of any griefstriken person, and most of them are going to take it. If its a bad thing to use the back in time crystal, then just don't produce it. But again, for reasons that are beyond me, AI Jor-El is never to blame for anything

That's why Jor-El told Clark that it is usually always worse to go down this road of action. He told him something similar before Clark took the crystal.

Clark is praising Jor-El because he keeps being told by other people what a great man Jor-El was in the flesh, and he can't understand why AI Jor-El is so different.

The reason the AI is so different is because it's not Jor-El's job to try to save every single person; because even Zor-El mentioned that about his brother. Jor-El probably looks back at the Krypton events and realized that if he had acted more cold and brutally he would have saved their planet and never had to send Kal El away in the first place.

All of us know this? Really? No, not all of us. Sure, I get frustrated with some aspects of Clark's development, and I do believe the show has used a ton of contrivances to stall him. But I also don't believe he never learns anything. And I don't believe that him making a mistake means he's stupid. It means he makes mistakes, just like everyone else. It was impulsive and foolish to plunge the blue crystal into the fortress console. It was also motivated by his mothers voice calling out to him for help. Something that would seem to me to be unique from his past experiences. No matter what, Clark or Superman isn't always going to get it right the first time. No one is perfect. Not even a young Superman.

As I stated on the bottom; Clark was raised by humans and his emotions which frustrate Jor-El and the MM thinks are his best qualities made me say I expect Clark to make mistakes. But Jor-El is trying to make Clark not make some many mistakes.

I'm cool with that. Shut the AI Jor-El down, and let Clark grow into his identity on his own. I've never been fond of the whole "10 year training" thing anyway, and certainly not with an AI Jor-El thats done the things its done. I'd much rather see Clark finding Kara on his own, with his own resources. I want to see a Clark that grows into being Superman not because his dead father picked out a destiny for him, but because its something he chooses to do himself. JMHO

In the comics; it never took Clark 10 years to complete his training. And if Jor-El hadn't picked out his destiny for him he NEVER would have become Superman. Don't get me wrong though Clark would still have saved people but he just would have been a "Super" guy doing extraordinary things. Jor-El teaches him how to protect the world from itself and from alien forces. Forcing him to think beyond Smallville and the people that he runs across in his life. He teaches him how to go out and find those who need help. If it wasn't for the traing Jor-El gives him; Superman wouldn't be half as strong or as smart as he is in the comics or movies.

BTW: I know Smallville is it's own universe. Combining aspects of both the movies and the comics. Which helps me use certain gaps to form my own theories. Personally I thought Fine/Brainiac should actually have been The Eradicator because in the comics that was actually created by Kal El's ancestors. And they could have used it at the time (Season 5) for a possible side story with Jor-El and General Zod. They could still use that with Jor-El and his brother now. Also in the comics Superman never visited the FOS that often; it even implies he is bothered by it. He just erected a monument to his biological parents and only went their for odd circumstances.

- Now BadToad you can dissect this counterargument. You really ripped into that last one. Probably gave me warts. haha I know it's a stupid joke but hey. Got to laugh a little bit about someone thinking my POV is ridiculous. As I mentioned I just really sympathized for Jor-El not helping Clark. I also re-edited my last paragraph to help explain what I meant by that a little better. Remember that Jor-El is his father and father's punish their children especially son's a lot different than the mother's do. Lara probably would have just wanted Jor-El to tell Clark where Kara was, and have that be the end of that. Also my own mistake with this episode is I sometime forgot that Clark IS NOT yet Superman.

[xrayvision]

Originally posted by BadToad
Boy, I love how there is so much passionate defense of Jor-El, with loads of bashing on Clark, and yet so many of the details seem to be left out.



Something a 16 year old Clark did because a disembodied voice told him he had to leave everything he knew, and everyone he loved, and when he refused, threw him around and branded him.

I completely agree here. I don't think Clark purposely caused the miscarriage. I think he just wanted to destroy the ship so he wouldn't be controlled and turn into a dictator like the message in his ship said. And I think once the ship was destroyed, the baby died. I don't think the baby died because of the crash. I think until it was born it's life depended on the existence of the ship. And the baby was obviously a bargaining tool from Jor-El. He would give them a baby while taking Clark back.


Season 4 comes after the conclusion of S3, where Jor-El sends a girl, who turns out to be essentialy a zombie, to lie to Clark and say she's Kryptonian, who then goes on to murder someone. And when Clark is lured to the caves by blatantly false promises, Jor-El attacks Jonathan Kent for trying to tell Clark the truth. He sucks Clark into a cave wall, brainwashes him, strips him of his memory and identity, disposes of the girl he was using , and leaves Jonathan Kent on life support, in a coma.

This was pretty messed up. Jor-El should have summoned Clark to the cave and told him what he wanted of him. The problem was that back then, the writers didn't know what it was that they would make Jor-El want from Clark. This was obvious in the horribly set up stones storyline in season 4. In Crusade, we all of a sudden hear about these stones that were a big legend. If they were such a big legend, then why didn't we hear a damn thing about them in seasons 2 or 3? Because the writers hadn't thought of it. Don't get me wrong, I like that plot, but they went about it the wrong way. They dove in way too fast and didn't develop it. They should have shown us how Lex, Lionel and everyone learns about the legend, and this should not have happened in the past (in a flashback) but in the present. I thought Bridgette Crosby just handing over black-k to Martha was horrible. They pulled that one out of their asses. It should have been developed, not rushed in the few episodes that were about the stones, and then have the 75-80% of the season be fillers.

Oh yeah, Of Course, why wouldn't we want Clark to immediately turn around in S4 and just follow this guys orders. I mean, he's only a murderer. He's only a liar. He only attacked Clark's father, and brainwashed him. But No, instead its bad, stupid Clark who won't do as Jor-El says. :rolleyes:

I disagree somewhat here. I think Clark had some small portion of trust in Jor-El when he went to him in Sacred. I think at least from that point on, he should have gone looking for the stones. For something like searching for the stones that wouldn't harm Clark or someone else, I would say listen to him. But for something else like sacrificing the vessel (in Vessel), I would say forget about it.

Not that the entire stones storyline made a lick of sense anyway.

I thought it was a shame at how bad they screwed up a potentially great storyline.

Clark doesn't return to the fortress because he's helping someone who is badly injured. And Jor-El immediately makes him mortal. This is the choice of the AI Jor-El, not Clark's choosing. Bringing Clark back from the dead was the choice of the AI Jor-El, not Clark. Here's another way to look at it...if Jor-El hadn't taken away Clark's powers as soon as the sun went down, instead of maybe waiting to see if Clark was delayed and had an explanation, then Clark wouldn't have been shot and died while trying to help people, and then Jor-El never would've had to restore his life by marking someone else for death.

I thought that was ridiculous. I mean, there was just a meteor shower. The guy should have given him some more leeway. Clark should have demanded it before he left. He should have demanded it yet promised him he would return as soon as the people he cared for and found along the way were not in danger.

Because Hey, who amongst us doesn't want a Superman who can plunge a dagger into a human being and kill them? Yes, even for a greater good. I was not aware that this was even in the realm of Clark Kent/Superman's moral makeup.

I sure don't. I thought it was ridiculous for the writers to have placed Clark in such a predicament.

And please explain to me how murdering Lex, which is what it would've been, would have prevented Brainiac from just going out and getting another vessel. Would Clark have to murder them too?

I think that would have been exactly what happened. He could have found millions of vessels.

The whole fortress storyline was oddly dropped after the S6 episode Fallout. Did Clark ever go back and get it powered up again? Who knows, but seeing as how he's back in the fortress in S7, he must've done it at some time. It just occured on Offscreensville.

He actually restored it in Fallout at the end when you see it start to glow again. I thought that he should have returned after restoring it. He needed info on the phantoms and other prisoners. It was dumb to have fought them without more knowledge. He could have perhaps learned of a way to open the portal to the Phantom Zone so he could have sent them back without killing so many of them.

And what the heck else was Clark supposed to do? Really, someone please tell me. For one thing, both MM and Lionel as Jor-El's vessel withheld this information from Clark till the very last minute. And then it becomes perfectly clear that neither of them can take on this phantom, who is going around and killing people that he temporarily inhabits. What do you want Clark to do? Hide out, so the phantom can't get his DNA? Say "screw those humans, I gotta protect myself here"? What are the options for him?

I don't blame Clark for going after him. I don't think Lionel or the MM had enough info on the phantom till the end, because as of Prototype, Lionel was still writing down findings he saw from that video. I do think Clark should have gone to the FOS way before fighting the phantom. It was foolish to fight extraterrestrial beings thrown into the Phantom Zone by Jor-El when he is still very inexperienced and could have easily spoken to his father who put them in that prison and had info on how he could stop them. This is the biggest problem I had with Lionel forcing Lana to marry Lex and how Lana was "protecting" Clark. That could have been avoided had he gone to Jor-El. And only Clark protected himself at the end because the video Lana got didn't help Clark one lick anyway.

Clark maybe doesn't listen blindly to Jor-El because there's a history in his relationship with him. A history that involves branding, and attacks on his father, and brainwashing. And in this episode, Clark fixed his own mess for the most part, no help from Jor-El. Clark was the one that was determined to get back to the FOS. Clark was the one that brought along kryptonite. Clark was the one that destroyed the crystal. I don't really think asking Jor-El to help him find Kara seems like too much to ask. But if he doesn't want to help, then thats fine too. Just let go Clark do it himself then.

I really thought Clark was an idiot for doing what he did this episode. Not because of his trust or lack thereof in Jor-El, but because of what he knew of Zor-El from just a few episodes earlier. He knew about Zor-El & knew that Zor-El created that crystal. Without Jor-El telling him not to place the blue crystal in the FOS, he should have known doing so would be a stupid thing. He saw from Kara's memory that Zor-El wanted Lara and wanted to place her DNA in the crystal. I really did think he was selfish. Yeah, it would be great to meet a clone of his mom, but he should have known there was a price to pay because Zor-El would not have created it without an ulterior motive. If that was me and I saw so many negative things done by Kryptonians, the last thing I would do is make it possible for another evil Kryptonian to return. I thought Clark was a very big idiot in this episode. Yeah, he put things right, but he could have cost many lives.

But what you ignore in this paragraph is that it was AI Jor-El that gave Clark the means to turn back time in the first place. You dangle that sort of thing in front of any griefstriken person, and most of them are going to take it. If its a bad thing to use the back in time crystal, then just don't produce it. But again, for reasons that are beyond me, AI Jor-El is never to blame for anything

I hated that episode and everything about it. It ruined what was up until then a great season and the most promising one. I do think that Jor-El is a hypocrite because he said that Kryptonians aren't gods, yet he played God himself by bringing Clark back and switching Jonathan's life for his. Yeah, if he didn't do that Jonathan would have been dead from the nuke anyway, but it still showed that he played God.

Clark is praising Jor-El because he keeps being told by other people what a great man Jor-El was in the flesh, and he can't understand why AI Jor-El is so different.

Yeah, I know. Raya had nothing but good things to say about him. So did the MM. Clark even saw it with his own eyes when he had those flashbacks of Jor-El on Earth in Relic. I really liked that he brought that up. I think it was long overdue.

All of us know this? Really? No, not all of us. Sure, I get frustrated with some aspects of Clark's development, and I do believe the show has used a ton of contrivances to stall him. But I also don't believe he never learns anything. And I don't believe that him making a mistake means he's stupid. It means he makes mistakes, just like everyone else. It was impulsive and foolish to plunge the blue crystal into the fortress console. It was also motivated by his mothers voice calling out to him for help. Something that would seem to me to be unique from his past experiances. No matter what, Clark or Superman isn't always going to get it right the first time. No one is perfect. Not even a young Superman.

I have no problem with some of his past mistakes. I don't call not killing Lex a mistake. After some of the stuff Jor-El put him through, I don't blame him for not doing what he wanted back then. But I still think what he did with the blue crystal was a bonehead move. The last time he plugged in a crystal that was not Jor-El's, the FOS was almost destroyed. At this point, he should not trust anything alien/Kryptonian and consider them all a threat...even the Eradicator if it ever shows up (which I'm hoping does happen).

I'm cool with that. Shut the AI Jor-El down, and let Clark grow into his identity on his own. I've never been fond of the whole "10 year training" thing anyway, and certainly not with an AI Jor-El thats done the things its done. I'd much rather see Clark finding Kara on his own, with his own resources. I want to see a Clark that grows into being Superman not because his dead father picked out a destiny for him, but because its something he chooses to do himself. JMHO

I don't want the 10 years of training either. As you know, I say just have him & Kal-El go at it for a season and let Clark improve his mentality in dealing with threats, his fighting skills, and his technological knowledge through his experiences in trying to defeat Kal-El (and ultimately doing so). The last thing I want is Clark becoming Superman for Jor-El's sake. I want him to become Superman because he wants to. And becoming Superman by defeating the product of Jor-El's will and his prized warrior Kal-El would be the best way for Clark to forge his own destiny by becoming Superman. This is what I want, and I want him to force Jor-El to accept it once he's done, because at that point Jor-El can't say anything else against him.

[freefall]

When Jor-El said that to Clark, it gives me the impression that while it's definitely possible he was a highly revered and respected man on Krypton for his scientific/social contributions, I don't think he did all that simply out of the kindness of his heart.

Maybe that's what he meant when he said it wasn't his mission to dedicate his life to helping others, he was saying that he wasn't an altruistic man. He simply did what he had to do or because he liked working on certain things, that's all.

Kryptonians (at least on SV) also have this mind-boggling obsession with destiny and duty and obligation, I think they have a tradition of forcing this kind of thinking onto their sons and daughters. Jor-El revealed as much when he lamented about his father in Relic, in the end he turned out to be just like his old man. It's a vicious cycle.

Zor-El is a loony, but I think he spoke the truth when he remarked about Jor-El being too cold a person. People can sing praises of him all they want, but if he even has the slightest trace of genuine warmth about him, Clark would have felt and remembered it in Memoria, like he remembered how Lara has felt towards him. But there's nothing of the sort. IMO that kind of person is simply incapable of making it his mission to dedicate his life to help others.

[BadToad]

Titan, I'm sorry if I came on a bit strong. Its just that I get very frustrated by all the passes AI Jor-El seems to get when its done some truly heinous things.

However: with regards to your counterargument to the Season 4 storyline that I mentioned, remember Clark remembered everything Jor-El taught him after he was reprogrammed by his father. Evidence is when Jonathan asks Clark how it felt to fly.... How is Jor-El a murderer?... Jor-El didn't suck Clark into the wall, Jor-El and the fake Kara said Clark could only go if he wanted to, and Clark wanted to eventually to save Jonathan's life.

I'll just address these things specifically. First, Clark had some memories from the time he was brainwashed, i.e. flying, but he also says that he remembered almost nothing at all prior to the last couple of days.

Fake Kara killed a man by disintegrating his car. Fake Kara was completely contolled by AI Jor-El, making AI Jor-El a murderer.

Considering how Clark entered into the cave wall, I think referring to it as "sucking him in" seems appropriate. Yes, Clark was threatened into it. But does that make any better? "Get into the wall, or I'll kill your father before your eyes". What a choice! Clark did the only thing he could do, and still Jor-El left Jonathen Kent in a coma. Why? Just to be a bast*rd?

BTW - bringing Clark back to life isn't as bad as you make it out to be.

Its not a matter of it being bad, its a matter of AI Jor-El making that choice, regardless of Clark's wishes on the subject, and then turning it around and saying "this is all your fault". Well, no, its really not. It wouldn't have happened at all if AI Jor-El hadn't decided on one of his sadistic punishments.

Jor-El never marked anyone for death; he just simply uses the "life force" of someone close to Clark in the hope that Clark will learn a lesson.

And how would this "lesson" in any way help to forge a workable relationship or bond between Clark and the AI Jor-El?

Also the dagger thing is similar, because even Lionel said if one can be sacrificed for the many it must be done. Lionel and Jor-El almost always have the same POV on matters which is why Lionel is Jor-El's "Oracle" & "Vessel." It obviously is in the relm of Clark's/Superman's moral realm if he was going to kill Lex after he believed Lana was died at Lex's hand.

Well, I'm not sure that saying that AI Jor-El and Lionel think the same way puts AI Jor-El is a good light. Lionel was a brutal father who did serious damage to his son. And though his actions are more ambigious these days, he's still no exactly walking with the angels.

And Clark was dead wrong to go after Lex like that in Phantom, something he even acknowledges in Bizarro.

Hindsight is 20/20 so the only reason Jor-El branded Clark is because he knew what Clark was going to do; because the brand disappears after the red K is destroyed.

I don't see how Jor-El could possibly have known that. And I don't think they'll ever be a valid reason, IMO, for branding a teenager.

Jor-El teaches him how to protect the world from itself and from alien forces. Forcing him to think beyond Smallville and the people that he runs across in his life. He teaches him how to go out and find those who need help. If it wasn't for the traing Jor-El gives him; Superman wouldn't be half as strong or as smart as he is in the comics or movies.

And maybe that works in other versions. But I don't think we've ever had another version of AI Jor-El that was quite like this one. I don't want Clark mentored by this version. Unless I get a better explanation for the hows and whys of its actions.

Got to laught a little bit about someone thinking my POV is ridiculous.

Sorry if gave that impression. Your opinion is certainly no more ridiculous then my own :)

But I still think what he did with the blue crystal was a bonehead move. The last time he plugged in a crystal that was not Jor-El's, the FOS was almost destroyed. At this point, he should not trust anything alien/Kryptonian and consider them all a threat...even the Eradicator if it ever shows up (which I'm hoping does happen).

Oh, me too X-Ray. Plunging the blue crystal into the console was a boneheaded move. But I can't say that I don't understand what motivated him. Still, I wish the show would find a more original road to travel rather then pulling out a hackneyed plot device to achieve their end. SV writers leave a lot to be desired.

And seacrystal, ITA :)

[Mischael12]

Point is in cases where the lives of people hang in the balance it is pretty good idea to listen to the giant alien voice.

Its a computer, its programming is set to follow an order, it understands on a higher level than clark what the problems that can arise.

Yes I agree its methods were far from kind, but at the same time, seriously has it been wrong with the consequences so far?

[ginnyfan]

Great posts everyone. I agree with you Titan. I think a lot is lost in translation, culturally between Jor-el and Clark.

I agree that often Jor-el has come off as an a**hole but so much of his craziness results in good. I think Jor-el's cold manner combined with Clark's initial aversion to being an alien, and the cultural differences between the two account for a lot of the... rebellion on Clark's part.

A few things...

The brand on Clark's chest caused him to take off his red K ring and call his mother who was sick with worry for him.

Fake Kara killed a man she considered a threat to Clark's safety.

Fake Kara apart from her identity never lied to Clark AND it's arguable that she never would have arrived if Jonathan had kept his end of his bargain with Jor-el instead of trying to wriggle out if it.

Clark said that the place Fake!Kara took him too felt like home. If Kal-el had had his way at the beginning of Season 4, there would not have been a second meteor shower.

The best Jor-el/Clark standoff IMO was about Brainiac. I'm glad that Clark couldn't kill Lex and in the end found another way to get rid of Zod. Clark used his brain and found another way. It was great. Everyone else, including Lex's father and girlfriend were on board with Jor-el's plan though.

Anyway... I feel like Clark has had, especially in the beginning, a lot of self interest in seeing Jor-el as an enemy. When Jor-el showed him is family and Lana and they all turned to dust... he was sort of at a cross roads.

Either Jor-el was good and telling the truth and he would have to say goodbye to everything and everyone he ever loved OR Jor-el was evil. He and Jonathan often jumped to evil, not because of Jor-el's actions but because of self interest. Yeah, Jor-el's crazy but then there is the paradox of them running to him when things blow up in their faces. If he's evil... why go to him for help.

There's definitly blame on both sides but... I can see the good in Jor-el. And I wonder how much of Jor-el's repellent nature is just do to the hard cold of Kryptonian culture.

Anyway great posts Titan.

ETA: The Jor-el/Clark relationship could have been better written definitely, but I love the idea of having Clark be a rebellious teen in regards to his calling. Something about it rings more true than the film version of Clark just blindly following the green crystal. I love how, at the beginning of Season 6 Clark is starting to see Jor-el from a different perspective. It's much the way it is coming out of your teen years and into your adult years... sometimes... suddenly all the stuff your parents have been saying for so long begins to make sense.

I'm eager to see where this relationship goes. I'm hoping for new territory.

[Titan27]

BadToad; this will probably be the last time I respond back to our discussion because the way I view it is like politics. Jor-El's tactics are the way Democrats or Republican's go about governing the country. You either agree or disagree with the tactics. SO you may never view something the same way I do or your do on certain instances; which isn't my goal to change your POV. Just to show people my POV. As shown by writing down examples of counterarguments to my own examples to further my explanations. Anyway...

Fake Kara killed a man by disintegrating his car. Fake Kara was completely contolled by AI Jor-El, making AI Jor-El a murderer. Yes this does, but remember what I said earlier. Jor-El doesn't mind sacrificing a few so Clark will become Superman. Jor-El saw the FBI man as someone to interfere with those plans so he had "Kara" kill the man.

Considering how Clark entered into the cave wall, I think referring to it as "sucking him in" seems appropriate. Yes, Clark was threatened into it. But does that make any better? "Get into the wall, or I'll kill your father before your eyes". What a choice! Clark did the only thing he could do, and still Jor-El left Jonathen Kent in a coma. Why? Just to be a bast*rd?

Clark had to choose to enter the wall with Jor-El. If Jor-El could just have sucked him in; he would have done it as soon as the wall opened before Jonathan could have even told Clark the truth about "Kara." Once again like I said, Clark couldn't take the chance that Jor-El was bluffing because all prior experiences showed Jor-El would have killed Jonathan. However; I don't think Jor-El decided that Jonathan should be left in a coma. Jor-El was suffocating Jonathan; and after Jor-El let Jonathan go, Jonathan lost consciousness, and combined with a brief lack of oxygen put Jonathan in a coma. AND consider if Jor-El is as evil as you might view him: Jor-El could very well have killed Jonathan completely after Clark entered the wall; instead of releasing him soon after.

Its not a matter of it being bad, its a matter of AI Jor-El making that choice, regardless of Clark's wishes on the subject, and then turning it around and saying "this is all your fault". Well, no, its really not. It wouldn't have happened at all if AI Jor-El hadn't decided on one of his sadistic punishments.

Jor-El brought Clark back to life because with the arrival of two of Zod's follower's combined with Brainiac; made Jor-El realize that they were going to do everything to release Zod so he could rule Earth. That's why Jor-El was so insistent about beginning the training because Jor-El knew what Clark was going to have to face in the future. Remember the a** kicking Clark gets from Lex/Zod in "Zod." Clark was no match for Zod. Jor-El brought Clark back to life to stop Zod; and if Clark had been told that in the FOS after he was killed; Clark would agree with his father that he would have to been brought back but would have demanded Jor-El do it a different way than someone dying. This of course had to be used so Jonathan could leave the show. The punishment was pretty severe but I think "sadistic" is a pretty strong word for it. Jor-El had to teach Clark what would happen if he avoided his duties (Zod/protecting Earth), and (theory) Jor-El knew it was probable that his son would die due to his tendency's to help people but Clark is used to having his power's so was killed in the second episode after his powers were taken away.

And though his actions are more ambigious these days, he's still no exactly walking with the angels. I don't really consider Lionel "Pure" by any stretch of the imagination either. He just like Clark and Jor-El have certain methods to accomplish the same objectives.

And Clark was dead wrong to go after Lex like that in Phantom, something he even acknowledges in Bizarro. I actually also believe that earlier in the "Phantom" episode Clark was planning to kill Lionel and failed only because of the MM's intervention. I think that is 2 human beings Clark was perfectly willing to kill and most likely would have if it wasn't for the MM and the Phantom; in just 1 episode, possibly 2 if the Lionel part happened in the previous episode. And Clark was going to kill both of them due to actions against Lana.

I don't see how Jor-El could possibly have known that. And I don't think they'll ever be a valid reason, IMO, for branding a teenager. I don't see how you can't see how Jor-El would know it. I don't think the writers can even give a solid explanation for it either. Just look at all the choices Jor-El has given Clark and Jor-El has told him what would happened if he didn't choose Jor-El's desired course of action. Jor-El's predictions about the results of Clark's choices has always been right. SO you have to assume some how Jor-El is a "predictor of the future." Like I said even I can't explain it. I also agree there is no explanation for branding much less physically hurting a teenager, much less your son. How would Lara have felt about that?? That shows what Zor-El said about Jor-El's coldness which Zor-El mentioned about Jor-El being a bad candidate for a father!

And maybe that works in other versions. But I don't think we've ever had another version of AI Jor-El that was quite like this one. I don't want Clark mentored by this version. Unless I get a better explanation for the hows and whys of its actions. I know you won't like this but I personally believe that Clark will have training with Jor-El after Clark accepts there is no future with Lana; and WANTS to become the "protector" of Earth. I don't believe it will be 10 years long though. Hopefully after the last episode of Smallville they have a brief black screen where writing mentions when Clark finishes his training, then says something like five years later a reporter named Lois Lane writes a story about a "Superman" who saved her life. Jor-El will probably explain his actions to Clark during their training but we won't see it because that will be after the show ends. In the comics at this time Clark was "Superboy" traveling around the world, learning about Earth and developing his powers but we stay in Smallville for the relationships and the characters that can't travel around the world with Clark. Like I said in the comics Clark never is obsessed with his biological parents like he is in Smallville; he just erects the monument of them in the FOS. Because both of his adoptive parents are still alive.

Sorry if gave that impression. Your opinion is certainly no more ridiculous then my own Don't worry; you just have a different opinion than I do. Nothing to apologize about. It did give us something to talk about it for a couple of days.

Jor-El revealed as much when he lamented about his father in Relic, in the end he turned out to be just like his own man. It's a vicious cycle. Zor-El is a loony, but I think he spoke the truth when he remarked about Jor-El being too cold a person. People can sing praises of him all they want, but if he even has the slightest trace of genuine warmth about him, Clark would have felt and remembered it in Memoria, like he remembered how Lara has felt towards him. But there's nothing of the sort. IMO that kind of person is simply incapable of making it his mission to dedicate his life to help others.
Seacrystal this is a great point too. It also helps my discussion with BadToad. I think what we are being told is that Jor-El was only a 'great, decent" man on Krypton because that's what he was expected to be as a member of the Krypton Science Council. He never really wanted to be a kind, caring man. Just stop the occasional innocent person who is killed like Louise from "Relic" which in my opinion is a reason Jor-El sent Clark to Earth. But Zor-El wanted to be what is brother wasn't when he defends his assassination attempt on his brother to his sister-in-law by shouting the reason was he was "Compassionate" compared to Jor-El's coldness! However Zor-El is a compassionate psychotic; who is willing to achieve his methods an evil way but he is compassionate about his beliefs, methods and deems them to be absolutely right.

[freefall]

Originally posted by Titan27
Seacrystal this is a great point too. It also helps my discussion with BadToad. I think what we are being told is that Jor-El was only a 'great, decent" man on Krypton because that's what he was expected to be as a member of the Krypton Science Council. He never really wanted to be a kind, caring man. Just stop the occasional innocent person who is killed like Louise from "Relic" which in my opinion is a reason Jor-El sent Clark to Earth. But Zor-El wanted to be what is brother wasn't when he defends his assassination attempt on his brother to his sister-in-law by shouting the reason was he was "Compassionate" compared to Jor-El's coldness! However Zor-El is a compassionate psychotic; who is willing to achieve his methods an evil way but he is compassionate about his beliefs, methods and deems them to be absolutely right.

lol at your description of Zor-El being a "compassionate" psychotic. :p

But I'd say that's exactly how I'd word it too. That's actually the one, single difference that has really struck me between the El brothers, since they're both so similar in their psychotic behaviour.

I've always been amazed how cold Jor-El seemed to be in that Memoria scene. I mean, it's his only child, who was about to be sent away freaking millions of lightyears away, and all he could keep nattering is about his destiny and their destinies.

It's as if he just couldn't wait to get his son off the planet, and it even wasn't because he was worried about his son's safety so he wouldn't be blown up along with Krypton, which I could understand if that's the case. There wasn't even the slightest touch from him, he just calmly told Lara to put Clark in the spaceship. When Lara told him about her fear that no one would love their son, he only replied about an hourglass being empty or something.

Zor-El at least did say goodbye to Kara, told her that he loved her, and hoped that would meet again someday. We definitely couldn't say the same for Jor-El.

[do3mire]

I've always thought that the cold, hard-hearted AI Jor-el is to Clark what Lionel is to Lex. Sort of a parallel story for these 2 main characters.

[TampaVille]

Originally posted by BadToad
Titan, I'm sorry if I came on a bit strong. Its just that I get very frustrated by all the passes AI Jor-El seems to get when its done some truly heinous things.



I'll just address these things specifically. First, Clark had some memories from the time he was brainwashed, i.e. flying, but he also says that he remembered almost nothing at all prior to the last couple of days.

Fake Kara killed a man by disintegrating his car. Fake Kara was completely contolled by AI Jor-El, making AI Jor-El a murderer.

Considering how Clark entered into the cave wall, I think referring to it as "sucking him in" seems appropriate. Yes, Clark was threatened into it. But does that make any better? "Get into the wall, or I'll kill your father before your eyes". What a choice! Clark did the only thing he could do, and still Jor-El left Jonathen Kent in a coma. Why? Just to be a bast*rd?



Its not a matter of it being bad, its a matter of AI Jor-El making that choice, regardless of Clark's wishes on the subject, and then turning it around and saying "this is all your fault". Well, no, its really not. It wouldn't have happened at all if AI Jor-El hadn't decided on one of his sadistic punishments.



And how would this "lesson" in any way help to forge a workable relationship or bond between Clark and the AI Jor-El?



Well, I'm not sure that saying that AI Jor-El and Lionel think the same way puts AI Jor-El is a good light. Lionel was a brutal father who did serious damage to his son. And though his actions are more ambigious these days, he's still no exactly walking with the angels.

And Clark was dead wrong to go after Lex like that in Phantom, something he even acknowledges in Bizarro.



I don't see how Jor-El could possibly have known that. And I don't think they'll ever be a valid reason, IMO, for branding a teenager.



And maybe that works in other versions. But I don't think we've ever had another version of AI Jor-El that was quite like this one. I don't want Clark mentored by this version. Unless I get a better explanation for the hows and whys of its actions.



Sorry if gave that impression. Your opinion is certainly no more ridiculous then my own :)



Oh, me too X-Ray. Plunging the blue crystal into the console was a boneheaded move. But I can't say that I don't understand what motivated him. Still, I wish the show would find a more original road to travel rather then pulling out a hackneyed plot device to achieve their end. SV writers leave a lot to be desired.

And seacrystal, ITA :)

Well said across the board, badtoad!

Originally posted by do3mire
I've always thought that the cold, hard-hearted AI Jor-el is to Clark what Lionel is to Lex. Sort of a parallel story for these 2 main characters.

There have been a lot of parellels regarding father issues in the series.


I think a lot of people are missing a distinction between the real Jor-El and the program operating in the Fortress. The voice from Clark's ship, the caves, and the FOS is not Jor-El. It's Jor-El's voice and a program written by Jor-El, but it's not Jor-El. If Windows were voice interactive, and if it spoke with one of its programmers' voices, it would not BE that programmer. The AI being cold, heartless, and doggedly singleminded, only tells us that Jor-El would write a program to behave like that. It doesn't necessarily mean that's how Jor-El himself actually was. That the program would brand Clark, strip his powers, take the life of somebody he loved, etc, does not mean that Jor-El himself would have done those things.

[All about Clark]

I actually consider that Clark has been in his training all along. The Reckoning choice was designed to get Clark to use the crystal in order to learn a lesson and I find the same thing here in Blue. I mean, Clark was ready to begin his training in the fortress and AI Jor-el said the training began with Kara, meaning to go through this process of Zor-el's crystal. Jor-el wanted to further cement the idea that Clark needed to obey him and Jor-el being harsh knew Clark would want to see his mother at any cost, a kryptonian side that was softer, more loving. It was something Clark needed and Jor-el used it. I know you can call it bonehead if you like, but Clark has been played by Jor-el for quite some time.

I also want to say that I feel that BadToad and X-rayvision have the similar take that I have. Because how should Clark fully trust Jor-el when he's seen him willing to kill in Covenent, wanting Clark to take the vessel's life, and branding him. It's like Jor-el knows the wrong choices Clark will make and uses that against him. It's really quite sad that AI Jor-el doesn't have the compassion that I'm sure either Jor-el would have or that Jor-el would have with Lara's influence. And it is clear to me that AI Jor-el has limits and that his only mission is to see Clark learn what he wants from him one way or the other, pleasant or non-pleasant.

[WickedJenn]

Originally posted by All about Clark
I actually consider that Clark has been in his training all along.

That's a good point, considering he was being "downloaded" with Kryptonian info, I'm assuming, on the season 5 premiere right before he discovered Chloe was in the FOS.

[M0RGAN]

Originally posted by seacrystal
Zor-El at least did say goodbye to Kara, told her that he loved her, and hoped that would meet again someday. We definitely couldn't say the same for Jor-El. How do we know Jor' El didn't say goodbye to Clark? Remember, Clark was only an infant when he left Krypton, where as Kara was far older & was capable of remembering saying goodbye to her father. The only reason Clark even knew of his mother originally was because he was captured & placed in the tank in the Summerholt Institute.

[STFanatic]

>Suddenly, Clark wakes up still bathed in the training rays and almost no time has passed<

Jor-el: "My son, your training is now complete, everything has been downloaded into your Kryptonian brain."

Clark: "You mean everything I have witnessed has been a dream?"

Jor-el: "Yes my son, all is as it was when you entered this chamber.", "You now may return to your earthly parents Jonathan and Martha Kent, my mission is now complete."

Heh heh heh It could happen ;)

[Sweetie]

I think that Jor-El had programmed the FOS just to help his son to do his training.This quote:"this is not my mission"made me laugh because it made me think how many times Clark said that to his father.It was always Clark's answer to whenever Jor-El ask his son to listen to his demandes or warnings.

[Jlvsclrk]

Wow, some really great posts here. I'm firmly of the "don't trust the FOS" camp. Its definitely given some hideous advice in its day (especially the kill-the-vessel line) and his treatment of Clark could not possibly be more ill advised. When the Fortress had him at the end of S3, it essentially tried to destroy Clark and start anew: the result being Kal-El who very callously ripped the door off Lex's airplane and could easily have killed everyone on board. Not a Superman by any means.

So Clark has reason to distrust the AI but he's also come to realize he has something to learn from it as well, in large part because of Raya. He did go to the FOS this season to start his training and it told him his first task was to watch out for Kara. He was essentially obeying it when he hid the crystal from her. But Zor-El was one clever bastard when he put Lara's DNA in that crystal. Clark's longing to meet his true mother echoes back to S3 - the lure that got Clark to go to the cave was the promise that Lara would be there. I'm amazed he could wait as long as he did to put it in the console. And if you call him a BDA for doing so, what do you think of SR, when a Superman who has already gone through his training (and certainly never faced the trials of our lad in Smallville) leaves the earth behind for 5 years just so he could check out if Krypton was really destroyed (not to mention leaving the FOS unguarded so Lex could steal the crystals.) God I hated that movie.

Anyways, I thought this was a case where Clark knew he was acting rashly but the temptation was too much for him to resist. He doesn't need the AI to teach him a lesson: he's already learned it. But the AI doesn't understand him at all. It is very much like Lionel trying to get Lex to be "stronger" by treating him like absolute garbage for years. The AI doesn't understand that the secret to Superman is his compassion and the fact that he cares for people.

[Poweranimals]

Personally, I've always been intrigued by the idea that Jor-El might not be the saint that we expect him to be. I know a lot of people are hellbent on comic continuity, but I'm glad that at the very least, Clark is questioning Jor-El's motives.

[GuardianAngel]

Originally posted by xrayvision
What does make sense is if the AI had 2 stages. The first stage was to be ruthless so Clark could unite the stones to prevent Earth's destruction. The 2nd stage was a version of the AI that closely resembled the will of the actual Jor-El that would pop out once the FOS was created and the world was safe from the stones ending up in the wrong hands. My guess is that Lionel interfered with the uploading of the 2nd stage of the AI to the crystal that formed the FOS, making him get possessed with that AI. This makes a LOT of sense!! Notice how since season 5, Lionel seems to be channeling a much more humane Jor-El. I think he will eventually transfer that AI that is making him be the emissary to the FOS. Maybe Lionel's death will make this happen.

I think you're on to something here. The FOS AI may be incomplete because of what was transferred to Lionel and will be more "humane" once Lionel dies and his kryptonian knowledge is transferred back to the FOS.
But I still think that:
1. Zor-el did tamper with the caves (in "Blue" he admitted he had visited Earth several times) and its 1st stage AI to make it more cold-blooded and kryptonian. This would explain the behaviour of the AI in the first three seasons and most of season 4
2. Jor-el's mission is not to defend humans and peace. That's Clark's mission. The mission of the AI is to teach Clark the knowledge of the universe that was collected by Kryptonians and save Earth from destruction (this was clearly stated by Raya in "Fallout").
3. I don't think Jor-el had foreseen how stubborn Clark would be.... and I honestly think nobody could have predicted it.

[xrayvision]

I have a theory thread on this with a timeline of everything that has happened with Jor-El:

http://www.kryptonsite.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=82426

I'm not entirely sure if there was any AI in the caves until Clark's ship exploded. I think the energy & AI from the ship got sucked by the cave. So if anything was tampered with, it was the AI in Clark's ship before Jor-El sent Clark off to Earth.

But one thing that's hard to explain is the fake Kara. How did she wind up in the cave? Was she physically dead or did Jor-El or something else save her before she was hit by the meteor? If she was physically dead, was she dead in a similar manner as Tyler in Reaper was (walking, talking, though no heartbeat), meaning it wasn't Jor-El who saved or preserved her but kryptonite from the meteor that hit her? From what she said, it sounded like she was in the chamber with the altar for all those years. How did she get there when it was sealed for years? If Jor-El was responsible, why would he trap her when he had no idea that Clark would refuse to join him in his previous attempt (back in Exodus)? Too many questions.

It sounds like to me that if the cave was programmed with Jor-El's or Zor-El's AI before Clark's ship exploded, then either Jor-El or Zor-El had to know that Krypton would explode and had to make a final visit to Earth in Krypton's final days.

[GuardianAngel]

Originally posted by xrayvision

It sounds like to me that if the cave was programmed with Jor-El's or Zor-El's AI before Clark's ship exploded, then either Jor-El or Zor-El had to know that Krypton would explode and had to make a final visit to Earth in Krypton's final days.

They both knew their planet was going to explode, even though we don't know when their last visit to Earth took place. Zor-el knew pretty well that Krypton was doomed, seeing as he sent Kara away in the ship with the blue crystal.

Again, why did Krypton explode? Because of Brainiac and Zod? In the movies wasn't it because of Krypton's sun (I'm not sure... it's been a while since I last watched Superman I)?

[xrayvision]

I don't think they knew Krypton would explode. I think they definitely knew there was a strong possibility that life on their planet could in some way be wiped out, but didn't know how.

One thing I wish they would do is finally explain who in the House of El prophecized the cave legend. Was it Kem-El (one of Clark's ancestors in the comics)? They need to tie the House of El's knowledge of that cave legend to their initiative of working on the projects that they (Jor-El & Zor-El mainly) did. I would love to see a flashback scene from Krypton showing Jor-El realizing that his son will be Naman.