Superman, Killer...? (merged)

[Tropicaltalent]

THis is now way off the beaten track...? Isn't it?

[i luv tom welling]

Superman doesn't like to kill the bad guys. At least Clark kinda felt guilty afterwards... but it would be nice if he could find an alternative.

[man of steel37013]

TECHNICALLY HE DID NOT KILL ANYONE TITAN ACCIDENTALLY KILLED HIMSELF

[jimmyolsenblues]

Only way to get rid of them is to kill them.
I love it. Clark becomes batman

[Uffr]

That had to suck.

[i luv tom welling]

No need to post in all caps. Clark admitted that he wanted to kill Titan with his bare hands and wasn't sure it was an accident.

[Raging Clue]

I would have done the same thing. If he couldn't use that little crystal on him, then killing him was his only option.

[niki]

"I wanted to kill him, Mom. I wanted to kill him with my bare hands. I've never felt rage like that before."

Aww, Clark ... I want to give him a hug, he seems so distressed.
I'd say "technically" he didn't really kill him, since it was Titan's weapon that stabbed him that finally killed off Titan but err ... yes. That's only to make myself think Clark's not a killer haha.

AND NOOO!!
Now Clark is back to wussy Lana grieving.

[sprmansmyhero]

He wasn't human. And he fell on his own stick. And it was self defense. And he feels bad about it. SOOO all and all superman doesn't equal murder. I think they are keeping to the his essence.

[i luv tom welling]

Originally posted by niki
"I wanted to kill him, Mom. I wanted to kill him with my bare hands. I've never felt rage like that before."

Aww, Clark ... I want to give him a hug, he seems so distressed.
I'd say "technically" he didn't really kill him, since it was Titan's weapon that stabbed him that finally killed off Titan but err ... yes. That's only to make myself think Clark's not a killer haha.

AND NOOO!!
Now Clark is back to wussy Lana grieving.


And it's funny, because he has felt rage like that before. In season 1, episode 9 ("Rogue") Clark told Jonathan that he wanted to kill Sam Phelan. I'm sure he was more emotionally involved with that episode than he was with Titan (since Phelan got Jonathan arrested and was blackmailing the family).

[freefall]

He also had felt the same kind of rage in Vengeance.

[HowardFilms]

Originally posted by jimmyolsenblues
Only way to get rid of them is to kill them.
I love it. Clark becomes batman

Batman never kills. I'd say in the comics, Supes kills villains (generally the no-other-way hardcore baddies) way more than Bats does. Bruce looks scary, but he's nothing but a big 'ol softie deep down :D

[Krypton935]

He had no other choice. he couldn't let titan keep killing people. Besides he didn't really kill him it was an accident. It was totally alright with me.

[freefall]

I thought none of the JL would ever kill unless it's absolutely necessary? (and lots and lots of feelings of guilt afterwards)

[HowardFilms]

Yeah, well Bats is actually way more anti-killing than anyone.

Superman's killed plenty when necessary, Wonder Woman killed in cold blood for heavens sake, and let's not get started on Hal Jordan, lol.

[dr feelgood]

superman killed lex in alt. universe :)

[jimmyolsenblues]

Titan fell on his own 'sword'. Clark did not kill him.

[Ilovebeinglost]

Not only was it accidental but Titan isn't even human so it's ok.

[man of steel37013]

just because he wanted to kill him does not mean that he did,he hit titan and he landed on the spike

[freefall]

Originally posted by HowardFilms
Yeah, well Bats is actually way more anti-killing than anyone.

Superman's killed plenty when necessary, Wonder Woman killed in cold blood for heavens sake, and let's not get started on Hal Jordan, lol.

But seems like Batman has no qualms in leaving the bad guys to their deaths, like in BB (don't know about the comics). Doesn't that constitute indirectly killing someone?

Though Clark on SV also has no problems leaving people to die, like in Trespass.

[dunkman]

Even though Clark was fighting & someone died, it doesn't contradict with his "no killing" attitude as Superman. For one thing, he saves a lot more human lives by getting rid of the "zoners", & this time could definitely count as self defense. With the remorse he was showing for having had the feelings of rage, I think we can see his character as Superman developing. With the zoners who aren't phantoms, killing them is the only way to get rid of them...
Martian Manhunter killed the bone eater, remember? He is one character who has always been in the Justice League, so sometime soon he'll have to meet up with "Green Arrow", "Flash" (or "Impulse" - whatever), "Aquaman", & "Cyborg" (who was actually in the "Titans", but we can overlook that).

[wraith808]

I think this was important to get to that point where he decides not to kill. And I wouldn't say he killed Titan- live by the pointy stick, die by the pointy stick... which brings a question...

If Titan was a kryptonian, then what was the stick made out of?

[Random9882]

Titan's falling on his own weapon is a technicality. Clark goes to a fight club -- where combatants fight to the death -- with the intention of facing Titan. And when Chloe objects that Clark could die, he says, "Not if I kill him first." I don't think Clark was working on too many contingency plans. Maybe he's already thought through his other options, but I would've liked to see him talk to Chloe or Oliver and look for ways to dispose of Zoners without killing them. Maybe it'd be a lost cause, but I think that we need to see that violence is not Clark's first choice.

Titan may not be human, but he is a sentient being, so Clark is right in regretting his death. He's one of the few Zoners who doesn't say he's out for revenge -- he's portrayed as a warrior who's interested only in the thrill of the fight.

Titan seems depraved and a bit mentally slow, but the real bad guy is Maddox, who's exploiting the meteor freaks/criminally insane at Belle Reve and profiting off their deaths. Clark could have worked to shut down the fight club and deliver everyone involved to the authorities (minus Titan, of course, who'd have to be dealt with personally). Instead, Maddox ends up dead and everyone else scatters. That's not quite the justice Superman should aim for. I'm glad Clark is finally stepping up to the plate and taking notice of the outside world, but he still has some growing up to do.

(By the way, Titan is from the Phantom Zone but not necessarily Kryptonian, so the stick could've been made out of anything. Of course, as we've seen in "Talisman," Kryptonian knives and such are capable of cutting Clark, so the weapon could be potentially harmful to Titan even if he were.)

[MidgardDragon]

Originally posted by Tropicaltalent
THis is now way off the beaten track...? Isn't it?

1) Clark didn't kill him, Titan fell on his own stabbing...thing...when Clark was fighting him.

2) Clark felt remorse even though a) Titan was a cold blooded killer, and b) Clark didn't even technically kill him.

3) Titan is an alien with super powers nearly matching Clark's. Superman has killed super-villains that were threatening humanity before, this isn't a first.

[All about Clark]

I can't believe how many disallusioned people out there.

The fact is, that both Titan and Clark were in that cage to kill, and a death happened. Clark indeed killed Titan. I'm just happy he felt remorse and that there was no other way to protect mankind from Titan. It is immaterial that Titan landed on his own spike.

[MidgardDragon]

Originally posted by All about Clark
I can't believe how many disallusioned people out there.

The fact is, that both Titan and Clark were in that cage to kill, and a death happened. Clark indeed killed Titan. I'm just happy he felt remorse and that there was no other way to protect mankind from Titan. It is immaterial that Titan landed on his own spike.

Ah but it isn't immaterial. Titan landed on his own spike for a reason. That reason is basically just a device to say that Clark has never intentionally killed anyone, but it still happened for that reason. Intentions are a big part of the whole thing.

[WangTang]

Originally posted by MidgardDragon
1) Clark didn't kill him, Titan fell on his own stabbing...thing...when Clark was fighting him.

2) Clark felt remorse even though a) Titan was a cold blooded killer, and b) Clark didn't even technically kill him.

3) Titan is an alien with super powers nearly matching Clark's. Superman has killed super-villains that were threatening humanity before, this isn't a first.

The only time I remember superman killing anyone coldly, would be those phantom zone prisoners, and most of the fanbase hates the story anyway. But generally speaking superman doesn't kill anyone,no matter how dangerous, he even saved Darkseid a few times. none the less clark didn't kill Titan, if he did, then we would have a problem.

[All about Clark]

Originally posted by MidgardDragon
Ah but it isn't immaterial. Titan landed on his own spike for a reason.

Yeah, and that reason was to mess with all of your heads.

If Clark wasn't prepared to kill, he wouldn't have been there.

[MidgardDragon]

Originally posted by WangTang
The only time I remember superman killing anyone coldly, would be those phantom zone prisoners, and most of the fanbase hates the story anyway. But generally speaking superman doesn't kill anyone,no matter how dangerous, he even saved Darkseid a few times. none the less clark didn't kill Titan, if he did, then we would have a problem.

Superman has killed super-villains in the comics before, you'd have to ask the comic buffs for specific references. I'm not talking about in Smallville, but yes Clark has killed Zoners before, and that is in line with Superman killing supervillains in the past. Killing is usually only used if it happens by accident or there is no other way to destroy or eliminate the threat, but it has happened. So far Clark on Smallville has only killed either by accident or by it happening in the heat of battle with a super-villain that was unstoppable otherwise.

Titan was a bit different in that Clark was actually looking for a fight and Titan wasn't really trying to kill innocents (after all people in the Fight Club seemed to want to be there) but once again it does seem to line up with the no-killing thing due to it's accidental nature.

Originally posted by All about Clark
Yeah, and that reason was to mess with all of your heads.

If Clark wasn't prepared to kill, he wouldn't have been there.

The reason, as I've said, is as an out for the writers. This way they can say Clark has never intentionally killed someone that wasn't threatening humanity. Or maybe it's to "mess with our heads" because the writers are just awful and want to screw with the audience. that makes a lot more sense. :rolleyes:

Like I said, it was a clear plot-device and an out for the writers. It had nothing to do with messing with anyone's head.

[Kal-ed]

Actually Im more worried about why he was hurting criminal when in reality he was using them as punching bags to release his frustration about the Lexana wedding.

[MidgardDragon]

I really never saw why it matters. If he wasn't hurting them (and just hunting them, which would be a more accurate portrayal of what Martha read in the newspaper) then he was doing his job as a superhero. His motivation shouldn't be frustration, but it won't be in the end, and right now at least he's getting practice due to his frustration. Trying to do the right thing and using that to take out some frustration = a lot better than moping or using RedK due to frustration.

[gunste1n]

God this was a breakthrough for my Smallville experience ! Seeing Clark superpissed of when he actually took all that beating from Titan I thought well this is going to end poorly but then suddenly..... ohh this made my day, Im not sure if I can lable this episode my number one favourite but its definently TOP2 favourites ! You might call it an accident that Titan died but hey its manslaughter then..... he god damn killed :D Though this could have been forseen since he has to get rid of them, but I never for a second thought it would happend by killing !

And even better if Clark doesnt listen to his mum, making him a litle more agressive in the future ! :D


What do you guys think? Damn this was a killer episode. Clark killed, he friggin killed ! :D

[ElVibo]

That uppercut was the best Superman move in history, it was like a video game.

[freefall]

I'm on the fence on this. Clark definitely had every intention to kill Titan, notice his choice of words while talking with Chloe at the DP, "Not if I kill him first," when he could have just said "Not if I stop him first" or something similar.

He's driven solely by anger, that's why. It would be just like Bruce in BB intending to murder Joe Chill after the trial, but in the end he's "saved" from committing the cardinal sin, killing in cold blood, simply because someone shot Joe first. Same thing happened in Combat, Clark was "saved" because Titan accidentally stabbed himself.

IMO the most important thing is that Clark felt remorse and guilt for what had happened, and I hoped that will be a character growth for him while realizing he needed to take his mother's advice to let go of the anger.

[ColdKryptonite]

First you all ***** about Clark being such a wimp and now you're complaining that he was too tough.

Give it a rest.

[Supersingh007]

Originally posted by man of steel37013
TECHNICALLY HE DID NOT KILL ANYONE TITAN ACCIDENTALLY KILLED HIMSELF

lol i like the way you think mate...thats very true titan accidently stabbed himself so its all gooood.

[Peat Moss]

BTW--Bats leaving Ra'as to die in BB seems to be an isolated incident. I never read the Batman comics but on the cartoons (and they're an authority, right?) he seems to hold to a very strict code of honor, including never killing and going out of his way to save the villians. This is not just saving them from exploding lairs, but from themselves. He invariably tries to redeem his villians and get them to stop what they are doing and become good.

Back on-topic, I don't think Clark would have gone through with killing him. And Clark was super-angry. He'll learn to control himself better.

[PKII]

Superman would only kill if it was the last resort.

[freefall]

Originally posted by Random9882
Titan's falling on his own weapon is a technicality. Clark goes to a fight club -- where combatants fight to the death -- with the intention of facing Titan. And when Chloe objects that Clark could die, he says, "Not if I kill him first." I don't think Clark was working on too many contingency plans. Maybe he's already thought through his other options, but I would've liked to see him talk to Chloe or Oliver and look for ways to dispose of Zoners without killing them. Maybe it'd be a lost cause, but I think that we need to see that violence is not Clark's first choice.

Titan may not be human, but he is a sentient being, so Clark is right in regretting his death. He's one of the few Zoners who doesn't say he's out for revenge -- he's portrayed as a warrior who's interested only in the thrill of the fight.

Titan seems depraved and a bit mentally slow, but the real bad guy is Maddox, who's exploiting the meteor freaks/criminally insane at Belle Reve and profiting off their deaths. Clark could have worked to shut down the fight club and deliver everyone involved to the authorities (minus Titan, of course, who'd have to be dealt with personally). Instead, Maddox ends up dead and everyone else scatters. That's not quite the justice Superman should aim for. I'm glad Clark is finally stepping up to the plate and taking notice of the outside world, but he still has some growing up to do.

(By the way, Titan is from the Phantom Zone but not necessarily Kryptonian, so the stick could've been made out of anything. Of course, as we've seen in "Talisman," Kryptonian knives and such are capable of cutting Clark, so the weapon could be potentially harmful to Titan even if he were.)

Very good post. I definitely had overlooked the fact about Maddox being the real villain instead of Titan.

Combat showed Clark being on the right track like you said, but he definitely still has a lot to learn and growing up to do. For me, the intentions and motivations go a long, long way indeed, to determine who's a hero and who's not. And Clark's intentions and motivations for stopping crimes in Combat are definitely off.

[redKfan]

clark is bad as and you know it! So what? Clark is aloud to kill! Dee dee dee like i said, worse than red K

[luthorsmentor]

i'm seeing a lot of, "he's killed in the comics before" type posts........besides when he killed zod, which literally drove him insane b/c of the remorse that he felt for over a year, give me one reference where he killed someone else......anyone?.....anyone???.......that's what i thought.

[Nam-Ek2]

I thought the fight was awesome
i loved clark in combat
dont care that he killed titan, it was a gd thing
was truely awesome ep

clark was ace
when he said "my turn" and started wailing on titan it was just great.

[Nam-Ek2]

Originally posted by ColdKryptonite
First you all ***** about Clark being such a wimp and now you're complaining that he was too tough.

Give it a rest.

I agree.

Can't everyone just settle on the fact that the fight scene was the best fight scene there has ever being on smallville

[sithius]

Wasn't Titan a cyborg? Either way Superman killed Doomsday remember... and there are others. So Supes does indeed kill.

[luthorsmentor]

doomsday wasn't a living sentient being, but a created thing........next.

[hanemg]

Originally posted by MidgardDragon
Superman has killed super-villains in the comics before, you'd have to ask the comic buffs for specific references. I'm not talking about in Smallville, but yes Clark has killed Zoners before, and that is in line with Superman killing supervillains in the past. Killing is usually only used if it happens by accident or there is no other way to destroy or eliminate the threat, but it has happened.

As one of those comic buffs I think I can speak for the record that Superman has a code AGAINST killing. It's actually a pretty major part of the character and has been used as the main point in many stories. In the Elseworld's "Kingdom Come" book they even make a point of saying "They chose the hero who would kill over the one who wouldn't and look what it got them" in reference to humanity's seeming growing preference and ease with the notion of killing.

In the early days when Superman was first coming into his own he was shown as a violent character, but from pretty much the 1940's on he was shown as sticking to a strictly "do not kill" mentality. This lasted until the late 80'e early '90's when some genius at DC decided that Superman would kill in an instance where he felt he had no other choice (flying in the face of a tradition that was probably older than the writer himself and probably owing more to the popularity of characters like Wolverine, Punisher, etc. than anything else).

In that instance Superman killed 3 Phantom Zone Criminals from an alternate reality each of which possessed the equivalent of the Pre-Crisis Superman’s power level. A level that was much much greater than the Superman of the comics at the time possessed. He predictably felt a great deal of guilt over this and went a bit mad for awhile and ended up exiling himself from Earth for a time. It was during this time that he developed his resolve to never kill again and coincidentally enough tested it out shortly thereafter when he ended up fighting in an alien gladiator game, which called for the loser to be killed. He refused to do so and ended up leading a revolt that toppled the alien empire.

After this the only other time he took a life was against Doomsday and since obviously neither he nor Doomsday remained dead after this I’m not sure how seriously that can be used as a barometer regarding his resolve not to kill. The comic references him commenting that he would stop Doomsday no matter what it took, but since both seemed to be pretty equal in strength I’m not even sure you can say he intentionally killed him. Both combatants simply beat away at each other until they fell.

At any rate, long story short, the one major thing that the characters of Batman and Superman have in common is their reverence for life. Neither kill for any reason. Hence the current schism between Wonder Woman and Clark & Bruce. She killed and perhaps even justifiably so, but neither one of them can condone her act.

“Smallville” however is an animal of a different color. I’ve often wondered over the years if any of the writers were even familiar with the character beyond the movie they probably saw as children if then. Their reverence for the subject matter is often in question in my opinion. Also in my opinion I think they try too hard to make the character someone others can relate to much more than they try to make him someone people can look up to. People seem to be much better with the idea of killing than they used to and I have to echo the sentiment mentioned earlier from “Kingdom Come”… "They chose the hero who would kill over the one who wouldn't and look what it got them"

[wraith808]

Originally posted by All about Clark
Yeah, and that reason was to mess with all of your heads.

If Clark wasn't prepared to kill, he wouldn't have been there.

Being prepared to in theory and in fact are two separate things. When push came to shove, he could have decided not to kill him... but that decision was taken out of his hands.

Originally posted by hanemg

“Smallville” however is an animal of a different color. I’ve often wondered over the years if any of the writers were even familiar with the character beyond the movie they probably saw as children if then. Their reverence for the subject matter is often in question in my opinion.

And where does it say that converting a character/story to a different medium means there needs to be a reverence? It's better to just write a good story (stay with me... I know that the story is sometimes bad so hush) than to ruin one by trying to shoehorn it into a prelude- this is a version of superman when he was a teen- it's not canon as far as I know. Just like superman in the movies having a child isn't canon. Look at them as completely different universes with similarities, and you'll avoid being disappointed in the changes.

[Ardiem3]

Yea, Clark said that he wanted to kill Titan but then Martha said that he was angry before he had ever heard of Titan. Clark had alot of built up anger that he was taking out upon Titan. Clark wanted to kill him but didnt actually kill him. Titan impaled himself with his blade. The definition of a hero is to find out when the greater good will be served. To kill Titan or any other villain to save others from being hurt or killed is the price that must be paid.

[freefall]

Originally posted by wraith808
And where does it say that converting a character/story to a different medium means there needs to be a reverence? It's better to just write a good story (stay with me... I know that the story is sometimes bad so hush) than to ruin one by trying to shoehorn it into a prelude- this is a version of superman when he was a teen- it's not canon as far as I know. Just like superman in the movies having a child isn't canon. Look at them as completely different universes with similarities, and you'll avoid being disappointed in the changes.

I highly doubt anyone would make such an issue about a character's ideals, principles, motivations, what are the things he's supposed to do or not, reverence for life or not, if this show is about some other kind of hero instead of the future Superman himself. There's a reason why he's the most well-known superhero all around the world and in the comics itself, as an inspiration and regarded as the leader where the rest of the superheroes and the public look up to him.

For me personally, they can change everything they want in Smallville, change canon or timelines or bring in characters from the whole comic universe or play all the love triangles to death or whatever, but just keep the essence of Superman intact. Though if we're strictly looking from the entertainment perspective, I definitely have no problems with Smallville :)

[Another-One]

Superman has only killed once in main continuity.

He executed Zod with kryptonite.

Zod's back from the dead now anyways so in the end Superman hasnt killed anyone.

He didnt even kill Doomsday. He only knocked him out. Imperiex killed Doomsday by disintigrating him to the bone.

[wraith808]

He did *try* to kill doomsday. His last blow was an *intent* to kill. My point is that Clark never got to that point- his blow was not an *intent* to kill, which was why he was shocked when he rolled him over and he was impaled on the spike.

[luthorsmentor]

Doomsday had no heartbeat, therefore not alive. how could anyone kill that which wasn't alive to start with?

[Peat Moss]

The definition of a hero is to find out when the greater good will be served. To kill Titan or any other villain to save others from being hurt or killed is the price that must be paid.

The definition of some heros maybe. But not a superhero. Superheros, at least ones like Superman and Batman, never kill for the "greater good". They try to accomplish the greater good without killing, and doing so is what makes them heros. If Superman was not limited by his code of honor he probably could never lose. I think it has been said that humans are Superman's weakness, not Kryptonite. But the fact is, superheros are all about individuals, not the "greater good". Take Spiderman. He was given the choice to save Mary Jane or a cable car full of children. But he didn't make the choice. He saved them both. When superheros are given the choice between killing and allowing others to die, they don't make the choice. They save the innocents without killing the evil. That's what makes them heros.

EDIT: Yet, I don't think Clark is abandoning this. I don't think he would have killed Titan even if he hadn't landed on hs own spike. And the main point is, he still regretted it. As he gets closer to being Superman, he begins to follow more and more the Superman code. This may even be why Martian Manhunter has come--to teach him what it means to be a superhero.

[Kryptonian-Ronin]

I don't think that Clark was "out of character" per say in Combat.
I am sure that Superman has had to "desire" to kill, probably based on the knowledge that no other option is available.
The remorse is the key.
If Clark didn't kill Dust-Boy who killed Alicia, and that was probably the biggest example of self-control we have seen Clark exert, I don't think any of the "deaths" in Smallville can be viewed as "on purpose".

Though it would be nice if the writers did a better job with these things.

[freefall]

I don't think they would ever show him killing "on purpose" anyway, that simply would be the last straw even with all Superman/superhero standards that have been lowered for this version of Clark on Smallville. Self-control seems to be a running theme for Clark whenever the writers put him in a furious mode. This is a guy who could bend steel with his hands so it definitely takes a lot of self-restraint when he proceeds to squeeze the life out of someone like in Pariah, Vengeance and Crimson.

Though I do wish he'd start toning down his powers WRT the bad guys, I still cringe every time he slams people against walls and throws them around like rag dolls, and doesn't pay attention when someone else is about to get killed along with the people he wanted to save (eg Trespass, Freak).

[Mr. Wrong]

Zoners like Titan have one purpose and that is to destroy. Unlike other criminals he could not be rehabilitated or even incarcerated any place other than in the phantom zone. Either CK killed Titan or he would have killed both him and Lois. A fully trained Superman may have had options but SV's CK did not!

[Silent Kal]

Originally posted by hanemg
As one of those comic buffs I think I can speak for the record that Superman has a code AGAINST killing. It's actually a pretty major part of the character and has been used as the main point in many stories. ...

All I've got to say is a great big "WORD" to your entire post (cut down here for the sake of brevity).

Look, y'all, I get "not following canon." Heck, I'll go along with it and view the SV series as one big, fat 'Elseworlds'-palooza.

And if it were any other hero, I could even go along with changing the essentials of character. But it's not any other hero. It's THE hero. And as THE hero, Superman has some inherent qualities and virtues that I don't think can be negotiated.

Maybe your idea of a hero is more Machivellian (the ends justifying the means, and all that) than mine, and that's fine, but to make Superman a death-dealer is to step over the line, IMO. Just because we can relate or we'd do the same thing in his shoes doesn't make his decision to kill RIGHT. (Of course, what "right" means is probably debatable, too, but that's another thing.) His ideals and ethos are supposed to be higher than the norm; that's why people really look up to him. Not just because he smashes guys real good.

The kill was intentional. Maybe not the method, but certainly the outcome, as clearly evidenced in his dialogue. Clark meant to do some killin'. If it hadn't been the spike, it would have been another Super-punch. I think that's plain as day.

YES, the fight was exciting to watch. Absolutely. But then I remembered that this was SUPERMAN. Maybe the teenaged version, maybe before he had any good sense about what he was doing, but at the end of the day, it was SUPERMAN. KILLING.

Did Clark have another choice? I don't know. But it didn't appear he cared to find out. And that's a problem for me.

[blaze88]

Clark definitely killed Titan and I don't agree with the idea of trying to paint it otherwise. Manslaughter may not be murder, but it is still killing. However, I don't have a problem with Clark killing Titan since he's not really superman yet and It makes sense that he killed an enemy or two before he develops his non-killing code as he progresses to become superman.

I do see the point with superman and not killing though because Superman is supposed to be this perfect, and completely ridiculous to me in someways, hero who is your stereotypical kinda perfect hero who can do no wrong. Atleast thats how the comics were for a longtime up until more recent years when the idea of humanising heroes grew, mostly brought in by Marvel and their sorts of heroes.

Overall I don't think its that bad a move since superman has made the mistake of killing before as people mentioned with Zod. I don't think its that out there to think he killed a zoner like titan when he was younger before he had a well developed code.

[RedKRules]

No excuses, He wanted to kill Titan and he did it ........that´s it

[Raging Clue]

Originally posted by RedKRules
No excuses, He wanted to kill Titan and he did it ........that´s it
His intention was to kill from the beginning. He told Chloe he was going to kill Titan and he did. Murderer or not, he did what he planned to do.

[wraith808]

So, I guess in the cases where Superman has wanted to kill but pulled back at the last moment because he came to his senses, he 'killed' also? Because he has done it- more than once- and it has made for good drama because of it.

You can't have it both ways...

[Mr. Wrong]

IMO, when someone produces a weapon intending to kill and you defend yourself in a way that inadvertently causes them to impale themselves the intent is self preservation. We know that Titan was capable of killing CK so since there was no other alternative action CK could have pursued. Unless he simply allows Titan to go unchecked until he can find a way to send him back to the PZ. CK simply did what no one else was capable of accomplishing. Even David had to slay Goliath!

[Peat Moss]

Clark wasn't thinking about what he was doing. Yes he said "Not if i kill him first", but that didn't mean he intended to actually do it. The fact that Titan died "accidentally" IS important--because what if he hadn't landed on the spike? So far Clark had just been throwing punches, and it would have taken awhile to actually kill Titan. Even if it took right up until he was about to throw the punch, Clark would have pulled back. He would have realized what he was doing before he killed Titan, and stopped. It was NOT premeditated in any case. While he was talking to Chloe, he was considering that this may be the only option. He didn't seem to be thinking a lot before and during the fight--posssibly because fighting Titan stretched his abilities to the maximum. He wasn't thinking the whole time "I'm gonna kill this guy." If you count this as killing, than you have to count every time he fought someone and they died as killing them, since it could be argued that he planned to even if he did not.

My conclusion? Superman wouldn't kill even if it appeared to be the only way. possibly Clark, before becoming a hero, would, as long as he feels regret, which he did. But in this case? It was not killing. He didn't deliver a killing blow--and that makes a bigger difference than you may think. Because I do not believe he would have gone through with the actual killing blow itself.

[freefall]

Originally posted by Peat Moss
But in this case? It was not killing. He didn't deliver a killing blow--and that makes a bigger difference than you may think. Because I do not believe he would have gone through with the actual killing blow itself.

Here's exactly where the writers dropped the ball yet again. They really should have shown him that he would never deliver that killing blow, without any ambiguity at all. Instead they just simply showed Titan stabbing himself with his own spike, and we're left to reassure ourselves that in Combat Clark has never intended to kill.

Not only Clark said outright he wanted to kill Titan (his choice of word goes a long way here, since he could have just said "Not if I stopped him" or something similar) but also when he said "My turn" in reply to Titan's "Time to die Kryptonian!" It just reinforced my impression that he really did intend to kill Titan, and because he was so angry too. That fight was more about himself, rather than the goodwill of really wanting to protect others.

Also like in Vessel. Clark already had Jor-El's dagger at Lex's throat, and they simply had to have Milton Fine taunting him "Let's see if you're your father's son" which prompted him to throw the dagger at Fine instead. In Rogue, the same thing happened when Phelan taunted him, "You want to kill me? You think that's the answer to your problems?" In Pariah, I believe if it wasn't for Lois pleading him to stop, he would have definitely killed Tim.

Even in Vengeance, they had him releasing his hold on the thug who robbed his mother instantly after Andrea yelled at him to kill the scumbag. We knew at the end he said it was because he remembered his father, but it's an equally valid opinion that Andrea "contributed" as well, because her screams made him came back to his senses in some way or other.

At this point of time, I have to agree with a previous poster who said that Clark hasn't yet fully developed that "reverence for life" code of honour. On this show, I believe only Jonathan had really proven his worth on this, when he still wouldn't pull the trigger on Nixon in Vortex. Martha and Chloe, while they're definitely the good guys, they still adopted the "for the greater good" principle like Lionel's, as evidenced in Vessel and Zod.

Jonathan was definitely and absolutely furious in Vortex, and Martha even said she had never seen Jonathan so angry before. But he still wouldn't do it, and we need a scene like that for Clark.

[wraith808]

How is that dropping the ball? Perhaps they meant to have the ambiguity? As even you stated, he hasn't fully developed that part of him... and we see the remorse in the end, and the question... what is he going to do? Perhaps there is a payoff here, down the line...not to mention the coincidence that we had an ep like this *right after* Lex killed for the first time...

[freefall]

Dropping the ball because it has been done so many times before, Clark in full rage mode and/or wanted to kill someone (Rogue, Pariah, Vengeance, Vessel) and it's still done in Combat. Not to mention, the anger was driven just because of Lana/the Lexana wedding, which makes it even more mind-boggling, pathetic and selfish in a way. With the other episodes I've mentioned, at least they were because of other people, Alicia's death, Jonathan's death, threats against his family and against the world itself.

[Ginx]

^ I don't think it was rage from Lana-situation alone. I mean maybe Clark is just all around frustrated. And he's still 'in training' so he's bound to make mistakes. I mean, hell, even Superman makes mistakes. Now we'll just have to see if Clark can learn from the whole situation.

[freefall]

I'm all for people making mistakes, hell I also know Superman makes them, but what makes all the difference is whether or not they learn from those mistakes. In real life I can admit that's not how it would always happen, but for a TV show like this, give us some character developments at least. Clark has been going around frustrated for six years running now, and it seems that he just keep getting angrier each season, as well as bottling his feelings more and more. When he's going to get a grip on himself and his own emotions?

[Ginx]

^^I see your point. And I have to agree. It's season 6 now - the fans have (for the most part) accepted his frustration and the heavy task appointed to him - but now he needs to grow-up. I see where you're coming from and I have to agree.

[HnK]

Originally posted by Raging Clue
I would have done the same thing. If he couldn't use that little crystal on him, then killing him was his only option.
you are not superman / clark kent, thank god for that :)

[freefall]

Originally posted by Ginx
^^I see your point. And I have to agree. It's season 6 now - the fans have (for the most part) accepted his frustration and the heavy task appointed to him - but now he needs to grow-up. I see where you're coming from and I have to agree.

I muself have actually long accepted that "frustration" as well :p It's like a car crash, a morbid thing but you just can't help yourself from taking a look at it and there's just no way I'd be able to stop watching Smallville after following it so faithfully since S1. But it would be nice if they can show Clark as a character truly worth rooting for, instead of just relying on the curiosity to know what's going to happen next on this show.

Originally posted by HnK
you are not superman / clark kent, thank god for that


I'm just wondering why he thought the only way to get rid of the Zoners is to kill them. Wasn't Jor-El's the one who put them all away in the PZ in the first place anyway? Why doesn't he go and ask him for at least info about the Zoners, instead of feeling he has to figure everything out on his own?

[Mello Penelo]

Bah. Clark didn't kill Titan. Titan was dumb enough to fight the Man of Steel and died because of it.

[Peat Moss]

I don't think it was just because of Lana, per se. I agree with those who say that Lana represents Clark's desire to be a normal human (thus he loves the idea of Lana more than the actual person) He's seen now he can't be a normal human. He's frustrated and wants to get some benefit out of these powers he sees as a curse, so he takes it out on Titan. Once he's done hitting the pillow (aka Titan) he'll chill.

[freefall]

Clark has perceived his powers as a curse since S1 itself. Doesn't make sense if he just wanted to take everything out on Titan after all these years, even when it was due to his powers that he was able to save Kansas from being blown off the map in Hidden.

[Peat Moss]

No, but he wanted to hurt Titan because his powers now made him unable to end up with Lana and have this "normal life" he kept wanting, and he finally realized it.

[All about Clark]

I think you need to add that of what the writers were conveying to decide if Clark killed.

The writers had Clark tell Chloe that he needed to kill him because he would continue to kill krypto-freaks.

The writers had Martha say that if he didn't kill Titan, Titan would have killed him and Lois.

The writers had Clark say that he wished there was another way instead of killing these zoners.

The writers had Clark show up to kill Titan.

I don't think there is any question about whether Clark killed Titan, he did and the writers let you know that was his intent, but felt regret/remorse in doing so.

Just because Titan landed on his weapon doesn't mean anything, they would have both continued to fight until one was dead. To say that is not the case, is to completely ignore the writing of the show.

[wraith808]

The point is - the place and the way they left it was ambiguous. At the rate they were doing damage to each other, it would have taken *a lot* for either to kill the other with just fists. Clark still had a conscious decision to make. To assume that he had made it, IMO, is to ignore the writing in the show. He might consider it his responsibility, but he didn't make the killing blow, so didn't have that moment of clarity- I'm going to kill him OR I'm not going to kill him.

It's the difference between involuntary manslaughter and manslaughter/1st degree murder. Intent. And if you never have that, no matter what happens, it's involuntary...

[All about Clark]

Originally posted by wraith808
Clark still had a conscious decision to make.

And Clark did make that decision by being there and fighting til death. He never backed down, only increased his power usage.

[wraith808]

No, he didn't. In a recent issue of superman, he was fighting a non-socialized alien, much like himself on power level, but captured by the russians and experimented on his whole life. Superman thought several times "I don't know how I can stop him without killing him."

In the end, he didn't- Arion appeared and teleported the alien elsewhere.

Did he make a decision not to kill him? No. He didn't make a decision at all, he was just increasing his power usage as he fought. Arion took the onus of the decision out of Superman's hands.

Another example. In another comic a little later, in a possible future, Khyber had pretty much destroyed the world, almost killed superman, and almost made the human race extinct. Superman came back from the brink of death, and he and Khyber fought above the cloud choked world in the sunlight, where superman was constantly healing, and getting stronger. Khyber was almost at his end, and superman cocked his hand back for the killing blow, saying that he had to stop him from killing anymore and making humanity extinct. Then he said "No, I wont kill."

And Kyber killed him. But the point of that was that he did make a choice. There was a killing stroke to be made, and no matter how angry he was, how much he knew was on the line, how much khyber had hurt him and the people he cared about- he chose not to kill.

There never was a point in this combat. It happens *during* combat. Not before. At the moment when you can decide to kill or not- do you do it? If something prevents you from getting to that point (falling on a spike for instance), you didn't make the decision.

[Superboy2]

I'll have to rewatch it, cause I don't remember Titan falling on the spike.

[All about Clark]

Originally posted by wraith808
In the end, he didn't- Arion appeared and teleported the alien elsewhere.

WOW! I don't think we're watching the same show.

[Peat Moss]

^^watching? he was talking about an issue of the comic books

[wraith808]

^^ Exactly.

@AllAboutClark- Read the post please. You're comparing Clark to the 'classic' Superman, saying that the fact that Clark made a decision to be somewhere makes him a killer, and that this would never happen to Superman. So I gave you a couple of examples where it did, to show that you are wrong. We can only have a discussion if you *read* my posts.

[Supersingh007]

oh stop being babies...clark beat the crap out of him boohoo. it was great to watch and you know it

[All about Clark]

My problem wraith, is that I'm discussing Smallville, and you're off making other comparisons that have no bearing, so yeah I lose interest in your post if you can't discuss Smallville only.

I simply say that Clark killed Titan based on what the writers were conveying. It makes no difference to me if you say he didn't based on comics or any other form of reasoning that is not Smallville.

[wraith808]

We're comparing Superman vs Clark Kent, thus the title Superman, Killer...? That's why my comparison of Superman vs. Clark. It's definitely relevant to the conversation... this isn't a 'what the writer's meant' conversation... at least it wasn't...

From the first two posts on the topic...


Superman, Killer...? Post #1 of 87

THis is now way off the beaten track...? Isn't it?



Post #2 of 87

Superman doesn't like to kill the bad guys. At least Clark kinda felt guilty afterwards... but it would be nice if he could find an alternative.


Both of those are talking about Superman. There is no Superman on the TV show. Therefore, we aren't talking strictly about the TV show...

And thus, in context, my post makes sense.

[Superboy2]

I watched it again. Had to watch closely. Not sure how his hand would bend like that and the spike stabbed him, but still.

[jessica_94]

i agree it was an accident and come on when is clark going to be over lana and be with lois now thats the really question

[Peat Moss]

Here's a thought I had (in the shower of course, where else?)
We can keep discussing whether or not Clark would have killed Titan, if the fight had continued in that manner. But here's my thought...
It's wrong to want to kill someone. In fact, the Bible says that desiring to kill someone is just as bad as doing the deed. But here's the difference--when you want to kill someone, you regret the thought, and move on, learning from the experience and not repeating it. When you actually kill someone, you may be able to move on again someday, but it will be much harder and you will live with it forever. Both Clark and Superman have wanted to kill people. But since they haven't actually committed it, they are able to look back, regret their thought, but then move on and not have to live with it their whole lives. This episode was a lesson for Clark.
>Finally, we got a Season 2-3-esque loft scene, where Clark discusses how what he has learned applies to being a superhero. That's what the show is supposed to be about--the journey to becoming a hero.<
Anyway, my point is that there is a difference between wanting to kill someone and actually doing it, and Clark will move on and be better for the lesson.

[Mischael12]

Superman Killed Doomsday--technically.

Anyway Superman doesn't kill because he doesn't have too.

If you don't have to you don't--something tells me if it comes down to someone who can take the blows Superman would do it.

I mean there were times he was willing to kill Darkseid--at least on JL---

[wraith808]

^^ Agreed, wholeheartedly. It's like since they have the real FoS now, they've totally neglected scenes at Clark's FoS on the farm... he needs time away at times, to reflect, IMO.

[the highlander]

Accident or not he killed him. It could be argued as self defense (as titan put that dagger out for a reason). But If you engage in a street fight and accidentally kill someone, its manslaughter.

He defended a lot of the people that couldn't do anything by engaging him. he did the right thing to do. Stop the unstoppable. In order for evil to triumph the only thing that has to happen is for good people to do nothing.

[Blue screen of death]

The path to righteousness and honor is not a lightswitch. It is a journey. Only by observing your own failings and misguidedness can one truely find the path of righteousness that everyone seems to place supes on a pillar for. It is only by his failings and poor decision making that he will be able to elevate himself to the high standard that we all know him to be. If clark meant to kill or accidentally killed titan it is ultimately on his concious, and having to live with that no matter the outcome could be just as terrible as the actual act in and of itself.

[Jlvsclrk]

In my opinion, Clark starts off in what he perceives as Kryptonian mode, based on what he remembers of Kal-El in S4 - remember the lad who almost killed Lex by ripping the door off his plane while in flight to retrieve the crystal? Also, keep in mind that he's been feeling guilty about the Zoners being released in the first place because he didnt' obey "Jor-el" [or whatever you want to call the machinery at work in the fortress.] The FOS told Clark to kill the vessel of Zod at the end of S5: if Clark had, there would have been no zoners to worry about. So if the FOS wanted Clark to kill Lex because Lex had the POTENTIAL to become Zod, it certainly would be on side with him killing the Zoners who are actual convicted murderers.

But given his human upbringing, would Clark ever have been able to deliver the killing blow? Its conceivable: in Superman 22 from 1988, he kills the Zod of a parallel dimension because he feels he has no other choice (and given the fact that Zod had exterminated ALL sentient life in that parallel universe because of a bizarre set of circumstances, who else was there to act as judge and jury?) As a result of his breakdown over that action, he formed his resolve to never again kill. So hopefully the events of Combat will act as a similar catalyst. Hopefully, it will also lead him to investigate further what's going on at the FOS. The Fortress is not Jor-El. Jor-El would never have given Clark a knife at the end of S5 with instructions to kill. After all, the real Jor-El created the Phantom Zone so they would NOT have to execute criminals.

[Blue screen of death]

I think clark is afraid of his true potential to a degree at this moment in his story. Its kind of ironic in a way. I remember an epi,what season and what epi eludes me atm, where clark was saying how he wished he knew where he came from and who his "people" were. Now he's up to his @ss in krytonian history and he's afraid of it it seems.

I also think clark should have gone to the FoS after getting it back up and running and inquire with Jor-el how to return those escapees back to the PZ
or the very least look at the "roll call" and see what he is facing and atleast have some idea of who and or what he is facing. It has been said over and over that these are some of the known galaxy's worst criminals. So hopefully he will be smart enough to use the tools at his disposal and do something for the GOOD for a change.

[Superboy2]

How many Phanoms/Zoners are in the PZ? Minus Kane and Batista dying in the show. There must be hundreds if not thousands.

[norman619]

This whole frame of mind is rediculous. If you kill them you are no better than they are. sorry but NO. Motivations are what define which was good or bad. Killing a murdering bad guy is justified. Specially one you know can not be contained. I would be a little worried if Clark felt bad about killing a psychotic killer. Sorry but some peopel and things need killing. I doubt the world would shed a tear if they caught Hitler and televised his killing. But I was happy to hear some truth come out of Clark's mouth and not more PC BS. He sure does have to kill the zoners. Somehow I don't think a slap on the wrists will make them not slaighter innocent people. It's a mistake we see in movies all the time. The good/stupid guy chooses not to kill the bad guy only to have the bad guy escape and pester him again AND usually hurts or kills someone the hero cares for. Put them down the first tiem and no future worries. :-) I know the Superman in the comics is a bit of a puss but hey.

[All about Clark]

I agree with these latest comments. Clark had no choice but to kill Titan.

My concern now is that Clark is happening on these zoners one by one, what happens when they team up against him. Maybe that is what Season 7 brings, because I can't see this zoner arc ending with Season 6. If they do indeed team up, Clark will need Jor-el's guidance.

[norman619]

Originally posted by All about Clark
I agree with these latest comments. Clark had no choice but to kill Titan.

My concern now is that Clark is happening on these zoners one by one, what happens when they team up against him. Maybe that is what Season 7 brings, because I can't see this zoner arc ending with Season 6. If they do indeed team up, Clark will need Jor-el's guidance.

The day they do that will be the day I stop watching the show. That would be very stupid. Clark was almost killed by two of these guys if the Martian Manhunter (Jon) didn't take them down. Clark is in no way ready to deal with one zoner let alone two or more at once. It's like they want him to be Superman and be incredibly stupid at the same time. He lacks the combat exp these bad guys obviously have. They'd make short work of Clark. I thought it was VERY stupid for them to have Clark face Zod. Zod is a freaking general. What's Clark? A stupid kid who has been denying who and what he is. He skipped out on the training Jorel offered. The only realistic way he'd grow as a fighter would be to fight exceptionally powerful meteor-freaks not facing seasoned aliens who are by all right his superiors.

[All about Clark]

Originally posted by All about Clark
My concern now is that Clark is happening on these zoners one by one, what happens when they team up against him. Maybe that is what Season 7 brings, because I can't see this zoner arc ending with Season 6. If they do indeed team up, Clark will need Jor-el's guidance.

My comments here were derived by the end of Combat when Clark is looking at photos (zoner impacts) and suspects there are alot more zoners out there.

If Nam-ek and Aethyr are 2 of them, they would hook up prior to going after Clark. Not to mention, that MM mentioned the other zoners would join in enslaving humans if Clark released himself to the phantom.

There is clearly not enough season 6 left to finish the zoner arc IMO based on Combat.

There has to be some ocurrance that Clark needs Jor-el and the fortress. Personally I think MM might be the one to tell him that zoners are joining forces and Clark will seek his training IMO.

[Superboy2]

I agree with norman619. He didn't have a choice, and he did feel bad about it. Same could be said about Lex. In the comics, if Supes had killed Lex early on, he would be saving lives. Oliver Queen/Green Arrow was right. The end justifies the means. Clark said he would never feel that way. Bravo Ollie.

[norman619]

Originally posted by Superboy2
I agree with norman619. He didn't have a choice, and he did feel bad about it. Same could be said about Lex. In the comics, if Supes had killed Lex early on, he would be saving lives. Oliver Queen/Green Arrow was right. The end justifies the means. Clark said he would never feel that way. Bravo Ollie.

Exactly! By his refusal to do the right thing, kill Lex for example, Superman becomes resp for the lives he takes. This whole "killing is never justified" is nice for lala land but in the real world it just doesn't work out that way. If killing one person means many other innocent lives will be saved then guess what should be done?

[Kryptonian-Ronin]

Originally posted by norman619
Exactly! By his refusal to do the right thing, kill Lex for example, Superman becomes resp for the lives he takes. This whole "killing is never justified" is nice for lala land but in the real world it just doesn't work out that way. If killing one person means many other innocent lives will be saved then guess what should be done?

Tricky slope you are on, where does it end?
Where do you draw the line?
And in regards to a being like Superman, where does HE draw the line?
And who made him judge, jury AND executioner?
I though we lived in a society of Laws?
IS that what Superman does?
Uphold the Law?

[wraith808]

And considering the power that Superman wields, what would the world gain (and lose) if Superman took that stance? If he takes him to the legal authorities and they decide not to kill him, then whose fault is it really? If there was a reason for Lex to be under a death sentence, then the authorities should carry it out- not Superman.

[the highlander]

So... authorities are godlike people??? chosen by regular people to uphold god's law?

Why can't someone that have god like powers deal with the matter accordingly? He can discern between right and wrong and I guess the line has been drawn.

The only thing evil needs to triumph is for good people to do NOTHING.

Law is really filled with bureaucracy and corruption. What does that accomplish?

I will make an example:

In our shop there has been a dispute between the shop and customer. He claims we claim. In the end, the process has extended for a YEAR w/o any outcome from the legal authorities. What does that tell you? Things get stalled so that people in power can keep their power.

"What does a man with power want? More power."

If we have an incorruptible god among ourselves, I'd be happy he be the judge.

Gods are beings that go flying around with a red cape and don't share their power with man kind. (or something like that).

[Kryptonian-Ronin]

Originally posted by the highlander
So... authorities are godlike people??? chosen by regular people to uphold god's law?

Why can't someone that have god like powers deal with the matter accordingly? He can discern between right and wrong and I guess the line has been drawn.

The only thing evil needs to triumph is for good people to do NOTHING.

Law is really filled with bureaucracy and corruption. What does that accomplish?

I will make an example:

In our shop there has been a dispute between the shop and customer. He claims we claim. In the end, the process has extended for a YEAR w/o any outcome from the legal authorities. What does that tell you? Things get stalled so that people in power can keep their power.

"What does a man with power want? More power."

If we have an incorruptible god among ourselves, I'd be happy he be the judge.

Gods are beings that go flying around with a red cape and don't share their power with man kind. (or something like that).

LOL !

Even GOd doesn't do that.

That whole "silly free will" thing.

Is Superman above God ?

[wraith808]

There is a *system* in place. No matter how much power you have, you aren't outside of the system (See Supreme Power by Marvel Max to see what happens when Superman thinks himself outside of the system). Superman doesn't even *enforce* the law, because he's not an enforcement officer. He aids the law enforcement officials with defusing and bringing under control situations that they may be too overstrained to get to, or too out of their depth to deal with. He lets *them* deal with the end consequences of said action, i.e. convicting and sentencing. Which is the way it should be. If he didn't act this way, then Lex Luthor would be right, because he would be usurping rightful authority.

[norman619]

Originally posted by Kryptonian-Ronin
Tricky slope you are on, where does it end?
Where do you draw the line?
And in regards to a being like Superman, where does HE draw the line?
And who made him judge, jury AND executioner?
I though we lived in a society of Laws?
IS that what Superman does?
Uphold the Law?

LOL!!! You must not live in the same world I do. Take a good look at what the peopel we put in positions of power do. They break your precious laws often and are never punished. Howmany corporations get away with pretty much anything they like? When organized crime figures extort money for peopel it's illegal but when the RIAA does the same thing it's just business? Only the small people like us have to follow these laws you are so concerned about. And what line are you talking about? I think that argument is soo tired. It's pretty simple. Super badguy who can't be contained. You kill him. You catch someone in the act of slaughtering innocents. You you put them down like the rabid animal they are. This "who made you judge" is rediculous. You do not need special permission to act. There is something very wrong with you if you don't feel you have the "right" to take a life when doing so will save another. It's a no-brainer. What would you say to a person who could have very easily saved the life of someone one or more people you care for and they chose not to because they felt they didn't have the "right?" We aren't talking about killing people for J-walking or some other nonsense. We are talking about taking a life to save/protect lives. When Superman chooses not to take the life of a bad guy and that bad guy goes on to kill innocent people guess who's resp?

Originally posted by wraith808
There is a *system* in place. No matter how much power you have, you aren't outside of the system (See Supreme Power by Marvel Max to see what happens when Superman thinks himself outside of the system). Superman doesn't even *enforce* the law, because he's not an enforcement officer. He aids the law enforcement officials with defusing and bringing under control situations that they may be too overstrained to get to, or too out of their depth to deal with. He lets *them* deal with the end consequences of said action, i.e. convicting and sentencing. Which is the way it should be. If he didn't act this way, then Lex Luthor would be right, because he would be usurping rightful authority.

LOL!!! Superman is a vigilante which is against the law in most places. Batman aides the law too yet law enforcement doesn't quite see it that way. And sorry but anyone who is beyond our ability to punish or contain is pretty much above the law or "outside the system" as you put it.

Originally posted by Kryptonian-Ronin
LOL !

Even GOd doesn't do that.

That whole "silly free will" thing.

Is Superman above God ?

Free will? That's funny. There is no free will when you have a god that knows all and sees all. The god knows what you are going to do before you do. If you really had free will the god would be clueless about what you are going to do. It knows your life from birth to death before you are even born. Is that free will? No it means we all have a predefined path and we have no hope of changing that path. This also places full resp for all of your actions squarly with this god and out of your hands.

Originally posted by wraith808
And considering the power that Superman wields, what would the world gain (and lose) if Superman took that stance? If he takes him to the legal authorities and they decide not to kill him, then whose fault is it really? If there was a reason for Lex to be under a death sentence, then the authorities should carry it out- not Superman.

Ummm.. If Clark took Titan to the police what do you suppose would have happened? What about if he took Zod to the police? LOL!!! And do you really think someone like Lex would actually be convicted? And let's say for argument's sake Lex did go to prison dispite all the powerful peopel he has in his pocket. What has real life shown us about powerful crime figures who are in prison? They call the shots form in prison. :-) So the net effect of locking up someone like Lex would actually be zero. So we are back to Superman should kill these bad guys. Normal humans with Lex's political and financial power qualify as a bad guy we can not contain.

[wraith808]

Actually, Superman isn't a vigilante. He's been recognized for his feats and given sanction to operate. As far as Batman, some police administrations in Gotham turn a blind eye, and some don't. But they still work *with* the system, and you can bet if they started killing, then the police *would* have a problem with it.

As far as taking super powerful people to the police to deal with, I'm not saying that the system is perfect. But to say that every time Superman sees someone that is "Evil" he should kill them is a very simplistic way of looking at things. And as far as Lex is concerned, that's a corruption of the system (in comics- of course the real world doesn't work that way) and a corruption of the system still doesn't excuse a being like superman- he *has* to stand for something.

And as far as the free will thing, there is something call foreknowledge, i.e. you make the choice- God knows what choice you're going to make before you do, but knowledge =/= forcing you to make a choice.

[Kryptonian-Ronin]

Originally posted by norman619
LOL!!! You must not live in the same world I do. Take a good look at what the peopel we put in positions of power do. They break your precious laws often and are never punished. Howmany corporations get away with pretty much anything they like? When organized crime figures extort money for peopel it's illegal but when the RIAA does the same thing it's just business? Only the small people like us have to follow these laws you are so concerned about. And what line are you talking about? I think that argument is soo tired. It's pretty simple. Super badguy who can't be contained. You kill him. You catch someone in the act of slaughtering innocents. You you put them down like the rabid animal they are. This "who made you judge" is rediculous. You do not need special permission to act. There is something very wrong with you if you don't feel you have the "right" to take a life when doing so will save another. It's a no-brainer. What would you say to a person who could have very easily saved the life of someone one or more people you care for and they chose not to because they felt they didn't have the "right?" We aren't talking about killing people for J-walking or some other nonsense. We are talking about taking a life to save/protect lives. When Superman chooses not to take the life of a bad guy and that bad guy goes on to kill innocent people guess who's resp?



LOL!!! Superman is a vigilante which is against the law in most places. Batman aides the law too yet law enforcement doesn't quite see it that way. And sorry but anyone who is beyond our ability to punish or contain is pretty much above the law or "outside the system" as you put it.



Free will? That's funny. There is no free will when you have a god that knows all and sees all. The god knows what you are going to do before you do. If you really had free will the god would be clueless about what you are going to do. It knows your life from birth to death before you are even born. Is that free will? No it means we all have a predefined path and we have no hope of changing that path. This also places full resp for all of your actions squarly with this god and out of your hands.



Ummm.. If Clark took Titan to the police what do you suppose would have happened? What about if he took Zod to the police? LOL!!! And do you really think someone like Lex would actually be convicted? And let's say for argument's sake Lex did go to prison dispite all the powerful peopel he has in his pocket. What has real life shown us about powerful crime figures who are in prison? They call the shots form in prison. :-) So the net effect of locking up someone like Lex would actually be zero. So we are back to Superman should kill these bad guys. Normal humans with Lex's political and financial power qualify as a bad guy we can not contain.

Maybe I do live in a different world than you, a world in which I was a peacekepper in Bosnia in 98, you do know what happend over there right?
People believing that the ends justifies the means.

If you don't believe in free will, that;s your choice.

Ah Choice...an amazing thing isn't it?

And to actually have a choice...

Well, Superman does not put himself above anyone else just because he has super powers, he does not put himself above the law, just because he has super powers.
That is his choice.

Maybe you want a super powered being to dictate to you who should live and die, maybe you don't want that choice or that responsibilty and want someone else to have it.

That is YOUR choice.




Of course this is all speculative and Superman is a fictional character.
So lets keep that in perspective.

[All about Clark]

I think in the case of the zoners, or any alien threat, that it is Clark that has to kill them or send them to the PZ, because non-human threats would be too much for human civilization to be able to deal with. After all, these zoners were already convicted prior and Clark is responsible for their presence. However, this is the only circumstance in which I agree with Norman619.

I believe Clark is fully aware that any human threats must be taken care of by means of the laws set for humans and knows it is not his place to be judge, jury and executioner.

[wraith808]

I think one of the worrying points (not necessarily about Clark, but about the writers and their conception of continuity) is the fact that he hasn't tried to consult the FoS for another way. Hopefully he will. But to see him go down this path without looking for another way would be very strange.

[norman619]

Originally posted by Kryptonian-Ronin
Maybe I do live in a different world than you, a world in which I was a peacekepper in Bosnia in 98, you do know what happend over there right?
People believing that the ends justifies the means.

If you don't believe in free will, that;s your choice.

Ah Choice...an amazing thing isn't it?

And to actually have a choice...

Well, Superman does not put himself above anyone else just because he has super powers, he does not put himself above the law, just because he has super powers.
That is his choice.

Maybe you want a super powered being to dictate to you who should live and die, maybe you don't want that choice or that responsibilty and want someone else to have it.

That is YOUR choice.




Of course this is all speculative and Superman is a fictional character.
So lets keep that in perspective.

Sorry but Superman IS dictating how you should live by punishing those he feels are doing wrong. Big woop you were in Bosnia. Doesn't change the truth of what I said. Superman IS putting himself above others by taking matters into his own hands. If he truly felt he was like everyone else then he'd simply let the authorities handle the bad guys. Superman IS supposed to be a christ-like figure. He's supposd to guide humanity. At least that's what the comics established and it's also what the AI Jorel implied a few season ago.

[wraith808]

^^You're missing a fact. Superman *does not* punish. He stops crimes and apprehends. He allows the courts to punish. Which is the whole point of this conversation. You're saying that he should inflict punishment in the form of death, i.e. become judge jury and executioner. He is none of those- more akin to a law officer than anything else, though he really isn't even that.

[onyx42]

it is so off track it's not funny. i mean c'mon, superman a killer, not in a million years, but...yeah he has killed but there was no actual intention to kill the being, it was the only way to stop him (Titan). i just hope that Clark can find a way to send the others back to the Phantom Zone and not kill them.

Lastly, they had better get back on track with the story of superman because this is getting soooo tiresome.

[Kryptonian-Ronin]

Originally posted by norman619
Sorry but Superman IS dictating how you should live by punishing those he feels are doing wrong. Big woop you were in Bosnia. Doesn't change the truth of what I said. Superman IS putting himself above others by taking matters into his own hands. If he truly felt he was like everyone else then he'd simply let the authorities handle the bad guys. Superman IS supposed to be a christ-like figure. He's supposd to guide humanity. At least that's what the comics established and it's also what the AI Jorel implied a few season ago.

LOL !!
Christ like eh?
Do his creators know about that?
What with them being jewish and making him "Moses-like" at best.
If you wanna go "christ-like" that is ok to - "judge not lest ye be judged"
And so on and so forth..

He is guiding humanity, by example.

You are so far off and your argument so full of holes that it is quite funny actually.

As for the Bosnia thing, where did you serve?

Enjoy your world view, I am sure you are doing your part to make it a better place.

[All about Clark]

^But the fact remains that Clark did show intention in killing Titan. He sought him out and went one on one. He even told Chloe that's what he needed to do. I still remain that he does need to be judge, jury and executioner relating to the zoners only because Titan was already convicted by being in the PZ and that Titan remained a killer solidified it.

Clark would never be judge, jury, and executioner with humans, since this they're home and they have established their own laws for dealing with humans.

[Kryptonian-Ronin]

Originally posted by All about Clark
^But the fact remains that Clark did show intention in killing Titan. He sought him out and went one on one. He even told Chloe that's what he needed to do. I still remain that he does need to be judge, jury and executioner relating to the zoners only because Titan was already convicted by being in the PZ and that Titan remained a killer solidified it.

Clark would never be judge, jury, and executioner with humans, since this they're home and they have established their own laws for dealing with humans.

In THIS case, it would seem that way, though I don't recall at what point it was made clear that Clark had no other choice, do you?
Did he go back to the FOS and try to find away to stop them or send them back?
No.

That episode didn't come across as Clark being proactive and doing what needs to be done, as much as it came across as some kid working out his frustrations about not being able to be with some girl.

I don't recall Superman being judge, jury and executioner in any stroryline, except the one where he condems Zod to death and that was because there was no one else to judge.

Superman is suppose to be as close to uncorruptable as possible, taking the reponsibility of taking another living creatures life based on soley HIS perspective, is not what Superman does.

[wraith808]

And as I said in another thread, what one says one will do and what one *does* are not necessarily the same. Have you ever said I'll kill her or I hate him and not meant it? They fought- people do. They did *not* fight with killing weapons- at least CK didn't. And he never reached the *point* of being on the verge of killing, and deciding to *do* it or *not*. We were robbed of that by Titan falling on his spike. If a person was in that situation and they were taken to trial, they would most likely be up on involuntary manslaughter. And might possibly get off on a self-defense defense. This because there was never that committal of intent to do anything but kick Titan's @$$. Anger is a very human emotion- but our integrity and morals come through with how we deal with them- and I think with the way that CK was raised, he wouldn't have been able to follow through given the chance, no matter how mad he was... but from this ep, we don't know for sure.

[All about Clark]

Originally posted by Kryptonian-Ronin
In THIS case, it would seem that way, though I don't recall at what point it was made clear that Clark had no other choice, do you?
Did he go back to the FOS and try to find away to stop them or send them back?
No.

That episode didn't come across as Clark being proactive and doing what needs to be done, as much as it came across as some kid working out his frustrations about not being able to be with some girl.

I don't recall Superman being judge, jury and executioner in any stroryline, except the one where he condems Zod to death and that was because there was no one else to judge.

Superman is suppose to be as close to uncorruptable as possible, taking the reponsibility of taking another living creatures life based on soley HIS perspective, is not what Superman does.

Well Zod is a zoner and so is Titan. Both were condemned to be in the PZ for their crimes. Why is one OK and the other not. In the case of the zoners, Clark is not judge and jury since they've already been judge, he's just carrying out their judgement in the only way he knows how. And I do agree with you that Clark hasn't gone to Jor-el to see if there is another way. I still suspect that Clark doesn't know he got the FOS working back in Fallout.

I also don't see it as just a kid taking out his frustrations. I see it is trying to rectify a wrong he'd done by letting them released, I mean he's been taking care of all of them long before the wedding.

[Kryptonian-Ronin]

Originally posted by All about Clark
Well Zod is a zoner and so is Titan. Both were condemned to be in the PZ for their crimes. Why is one OK and the other not. In the case of the zoners, Clark is not judge and jury since they've already been judge, he's just carrying out their judgement in the only way he knows how. And I do agree with you that Clark hasn't gone to Jor-el to see if there is another way. I still suspect that Clark doesn't know he got the FOS working back in Fallout.

I also don't see it as just a kid taking out his frustrations. I see it is trying to rectify a wrong he'd done by letting them released, I mean he's been taking care of all of them long before the wedding.

Context is everything.
Superman killing/executing Zod was totally different, you shoudl read up on that.
Clark was taking out his frustrations, he as much as admitted that to his Mom before the titan fight.

heck, even Batman doesn't kill.

I don't know why anyone would want to see Superman kill, heck in Kingdom Come he turned his back on humans because of the very thing.

[All about Clark]

Context is everything tells me nothing about your reasoning. Exactly how else would you stop a hapitual killer/zoner. We both already agreed we wished Clark would have gone to Jor-el, but I do understand that going to Jor-el must make Clark pretty uncomfortable, because he usually ends up suffering for it.

Clark said he was frustrated, but he also told Chloe he had to kill Titan to stop him from killing more people. Just because someone is frustrated, doesn't mean that will derail them from their path. And Clark's path has been all along to protect humans from these zoners.

I agree there is a difference in Zod and Titan, and that Zod was considered bad enough to lose his body and Titan was not. But I don't think that fact alone is enough to change the decision to kill. Again, this criminals have already been found unlivable in society.

[Superboy2]

Judge jury and executioner. Taking one life to save many more is justified. How many times have authorities put Lex in jail, and he got out? He could get out of a death sentence. Not hard for him. Sometimes extreme measures must be done. I'm not saying Supes all of a sudden decides to kill Lex, but thinks about it for awhile, and then realizes how many lives Lex could take from the ones he already has, and realizes he has to do it. I'm not saying being like the Punisher or Daredevil and kill every rapist, serial killer, murderer and what not.

Is Kingdom Come in continuity?

[Kryptonian-Ronin]

Originally posted by All about Clark
Context is everything tells me nothing about your reasoning. Exactly how else would you stop a hapitual killer/zoner. We both already agreed we wished Clark would have gone to Jor-el, but I do understand that going to Jor-el must make Clark pretty uncomfortable, because he usually ends up suffering for it.

Clark said he was frustrated, but he also told Chloe he had to kill Titan to stop him from killing more people. Just because someone is frustrated, doesn't mean that will derail them from their path. And Clark's path has been all along to protect humans from these zoners.

I agree there is a difference in Zod and Titan, and that Zod was considered bad enough to lose his body and Titan was not. But I don't think that fact alone is enough to change the decision to kill. Again, this criminals have already been found unlivable in society.

I think that you are looking soley at the Smallville universe and I am looking at the Superman universe, that is why we are on different pages.
As it was mentioned before ( in this thread I think), Superman executed Zod because there was no one left to be judge, jury and executioner.

Originally posted by Superboy2
Judge jury and executioner. Taking one life to save many more is justified. How many times have authorities put Lex in jail, and he got out? He could get out of a death sentence. Not hard for him. Sometimes extreme measures must be done. I'm not saying Supes all of a sudden decides to kill Lex, but thinks about it for awhile, and then realizes how many lives Lex could take from the ones he already has, and realizes he has to do it. I'm not saying being like the Punisher or Daredevil and kill every rapist, serial killer, murderer and what not.

Is Kingdom Come in continuity?

Kingdome Come is in CHARACTER continuity, its a "in the future" type storyline.

Being judge, jury and executioner goes against everything that Superman stands for, how he was raised and what he believes in.

[All about Clark]

Originally posted by Kryptonian-Ronin
I think that you are looking soley at the Smallville universe and I am looking at the Superman universe, that is why we are on different pages.
As it was mentioned before ( in this thread I think), Superman executed Zod because there was no one left to be judge, jury and executioner.

I may not be a comic book fan, but Zod was in the PZ in the movies as well, and to me that means he was already judged and found guilty. Same with Titan.

You still haven't answered what you expect Clark to do with Titan, if he didn't feel comfortable with going to Jor-el. There's really not a whole lot of options he has, he has to stop the killing and there's only 2 choices, PZ or death, and Clark clearly stated he didn't know how to get Titan to the PZ.

Not to mention, that his desire not to kill these zoners may be the catalyst that brings Clark to Jor-el.

[Kryptonian-Ronin]

Originally posted by All about Clark
I may not be a comic book fan, but Zod was in the PZ in the movies as well, and to me that means he was already judged and found guilty. Same with Titan.

You still haven't answered what you expect Clark to do with Titan, if he didn't feel comfortable with going to Jor-el. There's really not a whole lot of options he has, he has to stop the killing and there's only 2 choices, PZ or death, and Clark clearly stated he didn't know how to get Titan to the PZ.

Not to mention, that his desire not to kill these zoners may be the catalyst that brings Clark to Jor-el.

Found guilty but not executed.
What should he have done with Titan?
Good question, as the storyline goes, I don't know.
Perhaps he could have held him prisoner in the FOS, perhaps he coudl have found away to send him back.
The fact is, from what we know, he didn't even try to do anything else.
When Chloe said "he can kill you", Clark replied, "not if I kill him first".
Not, " only if I let him", or " I won't let him" or even, " he can try".
No, what Clark said was very uncharacteristic not only of Superman, but of Clark Kent, even the Smallville Clark Kent.
Remember the issues he had with the JL blowing up that building?

[All about Clark]

^Even from the standpoint of the movies Clark didn't use the FOS to return Zod and his minions to the PZ. It is possible that that is not a viable option.

And why would he use his (FOS) sanctuary as a prison, that I don't see as reasonable.

And it wouldn't be just about taking powers away, Titan was an enthusiastic killer, super-strength or not.

I just don't think Clark had any other choice. And his reply, "not if I kill him first", may not be desirable, but it was realistic. He had reasoned it out and came to that conclusion with what he knew.

I still would like to see Clark struggle with the idea of killing again, and run to Jor-el to find another alternative. To me, that would show growth. And remember, he is still very young, and that grief could plague him.

[Kryptonian-Ronin]

Originally posted by All about Clark
^Even from the standpoint of the movies Clark didn't use the FOS to return Zod and his minions to the PZ. It is possible that that is not a viable option.

And why would he use his (FOS) sanctuary as a prison, that I don't see as reasonable.

And it wouldn't be just about taking powers away, Titan was an enthusiastic killer, super-strength or not.

I just don't think Clark had any other choice. And his reply, "not if I kill him first", may not be desirable, but it was realistic. He had reasoned it out and came to that conclusion with what he knew.

I still would like to see Clark struggle with the idea of killing again, and run to Jor-el to find another alternative. To me, that would show growth. And remember, he is still very young, and that grief could plague him.

All I am saying is it was out of character and that Clark and Superman have NEVER been " the ends justifies the means" type of characters.


jeez, I just could have said that !

LOL !!

[The Ship!]

Originally posted by Ilovebeinglost
Not only was it accidental but Titan isn't even human so it's ok.

That is the stupidest answer i have ever read here....WOW!

How do you people come up with this? I have been reading lots of answers, and most are as strange as this one. But... yeah killing non human is ok?? where do you go next??

Sorry to sound patronizing, not my choice here, but i really think you ough to reEvaluate your answers, and think first.

We're in a changing world, it is just shocks that some things are still the same.

[Ireallylikethisshow]

Clark is a bit of a killer.

He tosses people into things (that could easily break their bones) and never stops to pause or bring them to the hospital.

The average human (who's not suffering from neurological disfunctioning) doesn't want to kill... EVER.

[wraith808]

Actually, I believe that is because of what's called cinematic liberty, i.e. they want to make the show exciting, and him merely pushing someone off wouldn't be 'as exciting'. Since they are taking liberties, I wouldn't hold it against them- after all, you don't actually see any of them going to the hospital... heck Ollie got one of the Clark throws and immediately got up and was ok. That should inform you that those 'throw-away' actions are not to be indicative as to his character...

[All about Clark]

Originally posted by Ireallylikethisshow
He tosses people into things (that could easily break their bones) and never stops to pause or bring them to the hospital.

This is an inaccurate statement. In Combat, he took them to the police station. And in previous situations, he took them to authorities or Belle Reve. It has been stated in several eps. He's not just leaving them there to wake up and cause havoc again.

[sithius]

Didn't he also feel that much rage in Pariah?

[Kryptonian-Ronin]

Originally posted by wraith808
Actually, I believe that is because of what's called cinematic liberty, i.e. they want to make the show exciting, and him merely pushing someone off wouldn't be 'as exciting'. Since they are taking liberties, I wouldn't hold it against them- after all, you don't actually see any of them going to the hospital... heck Ollie got one of the Clark throws and immediately got up and was ok. That should inform you that those 'throw-away' actions are not to be indicative as to his character...

yes, most people tend to believe that getting thrown is no big deal, look at Pro Wrestling and such.
I am a Black Belt Judoka, trust me, getting thrown is a big deal.

But "fantasy land" wise, it makes for less violence than actual hitting.

[Kevin24]

Clark didn't kill him.

I guess if I push someone and they trip on themselves and them get stabbed by their own knife they were holding it means I killed them?

Would I feel guilty about it? Yeah I would but I didn't kill anyone.

It's obvious that Titan would have been fine if he didn't get stabbed by his own bone that he used as a weapon. He even had the strength to get back up and tell Clark that he had a good fight.

Titan died not because of Clark's punch but because of his own weapon stabbing him.