Lionel "Your secret is safe with me, Kal-El" [Archive]

JorEl23

02-16-2006, 09:14 PM

Alright, here's my thoughts [ not that anyone asked :) ] :

1) The greater part of me says it is LIONEL. He has the resources and scheming methods to find out whatever he wants including Clark's birthname imo. He could have gotten it from Swann or his camp ( how do we know for sure that the Teagues really killed Bridgette Crosby or that Lionel didn't get to her first for that matter?) Not to mention that with all his bugs, surveillence, etc and ALL the times Clark was referenced as Kal El throughout the series. That's VERY possible. Throw in the supercomputer aka Brainiac being out there somewhere and being one of the few that can manipulate the Luthors the way they manipulate us commonfolk and HE could have very well provided that info as a precursor to some grander plan

that said...

2) I have a concept about Lion-El being the one pulling the strings too: Now that Jonathan is gone ( with a little more help from Krypton's finest scientist than initially believed ), maybe this is Jor El's way to push Clark away from Martha and Smallville and closer to him and his "Super training" up north?? It certainly drives a wedge between them if she suddenly preoccupies herself with distancing their relationship to protect his secret.

too bad we have to wait until like MARCH 30th to find out more...

LuckyKrypto

02-16-2006, 09:14 PM

Don't you wonder if maybe Lionel is Brainiac??

BuZzArD 8012

02-16-2006, 09:14 PM

Originally posted by Toppa
I believe that he still has the Kryptonian knowledge that the crystal downloaded him with. That's how he knew about the name "Kal - El."

You might be exactly right, it might not be Jor-El. Just the Kryptonian knowledge, well what was left over.

farmboy20

02-16-2006, 09:17 PM

Originally posted by red-K glory
this was an amazing ending!!! one of the best endings of the season. i do not think Jor-el is in Lionels body my impression is that is was still Lionel but how does he know Clark's real name? I am very impressed with how good the episode endings are getting. i do not think it is Jor-el in lionels body because why would he say "your secrets safe with me, Kal- el"? Jor-el already knows Clark's secret.

he probably said that because the audiance can't hear his thoughts so now we know how much he knows. if this scene "really" happened, he probably wouldn't have said anything.

BlueNRed2

02-16-2006, 09:18 PM

I think this is all about Swan at this point. Maybe Jor-El has something to do with it but im not buying it just yet. I also think he has known about Clark's abilities since the season he let people continue to think he was blind.

Lionel could have figured out Kal-El from things he learned from Lex in Hidden. Think Lex mentioned to Lionel that he had been mumbling about Kal-El and Krypton. Whether or not that was Lion-El, no idea. It is feasible that Lionel has figured things out without Jor-El's influence.

Lionel's arcs seems to have the most going for the show atm. Between us trying to figure out what all Lionel knows and the Martha connection. Intriguing~!

egsbrain

02-16-2006, 09:19 PM

So was anyone else ready for Lionel to put a gun to his own head as the opera played? That's all I can think of when they have opera on Smallville, because that was such a kickass scene. Granted, I didn't see suicide fitting in this time, but you never know.

LuckyKrypto

02-16-2006, 09:33 PM

What if Brainiac is the one that is controlling the information that was 'downloaded' into Lionel? (I know I watch too much JLU ;) )

I am trying to figure out why the scene happened with Lionel and Jonathan. I can't imagine that that was Jor-El. But I could see that being Brainiac. He would do anything to destroy Kal El.

Happy Random

02-16-2006, 09:35 PM

ZeoVGM

02-16-2006, 09:39 PM

What an amazing episode. Makes up for the last two average episodes in every way.

And WOW, what an ending.

And btw, I don't think Swan will ever be mentioned again.

Lois Sullivan

02-16-2006, 09:43 PM

Originally posted by LuckyKrypto
What if Brainiac is the one that is controlling the information that was 'downloaded' into Lionel? (I know I watch too much JLU ;) )

I am trying to figure out why the scene happened with Lionel and Jonathan. I can't imagine that that was Jor-El. But I could see that being Brainiac. He would do anything to destroy Kal El.

Its neither silly. Lionel went to Jonathan with proof of Clark's powers. He even told Jonathan, "I don't want a puppet. I want a partner" and that the picture held a secret "we're both willing to give our lives to keep". I think Jonathan thought Lionel was trying to blackmail him, and was furiated that Lionel knew the truth. Hence the whole "I won't let you destroy my family" and hitting him. Lionel didn't go looking for a fight, he went looking to make amends and help Jonathan. Jonathan's heart attack is no one's fault but Jonathan's for overreacting.

I think the security guard came along to blackmail Martha, and Lionel payed him off. Maybe even killed him. Just like Lex's spy Griff. Lionel destroyed the evidence from Griff, and he got rid of Martha's blackmailer as well. He's trying to keep the secret from getting out.

hanemg

02-16-2006, 09:45 PM

This is way out of left field, but did Swann ever have possession of the mind transfer stone? And if so, could Lionel be Swann or possibly Crosby? That might even explain why Jor-El chose Lionel's body for that little heart to heart with Clark.

Now, I have no idea why Swann or Crosby would have tried to blackmail Jonathan or get in good with Martha, but once that thought came to mind following the words "Your secret is safe with me, Kal-El" which were so similar to what Swann said I couldn't get it out of my head.

So, what does everyone else think?

LuckyKrypto

02-16-2006, 09:50 PM

Lois Sullivan

02-16-2006, 10:07 PM

Originally posted by LuckyKrypto
So your saying that it was Jor-El talking to Jonathan?

No. I'm saying it was Lionel talking to Jonathan. I'm saying Lionel hasn't been inhabited by Jor-El since Hidden. Everything Lionel knows about Clark came from when he was downloaded with the Kryptonian knowledge. He's known since than the true origins of our favorite farmboy, and he's done everything he can to keep those origins a secret, including killing Griff, the spy that Lex sent out on the Kent's to get blackmailing info. He burned the proof Griff had of Clark, and killed him. And I think that this time around, this wasn't orchestrated by Lionel either. I think that guy really was a security guard from the warehouse in Lockdown. Lionel paid him off, and the guy gave him the original copy of the security video.

sari_chem

02-16-2006, 10:11 PM

all I can say...my jaw totally dropped at that line!!

Happy Random

02-16-2006, 10:16 PM

Is it possible that Jor-El can pop in and out of Lionel whenever he wants to? And that he is only controlling some of Lionels actions?

nipvillesmlltuk

02-16-2006, 10:17 PM

I think, IMHO..really, that Jor-El is in Lionel's body. I think the fight in Reckoning, purposely lead to JK's heart attack, meaning that Jor-El knew that JK seeing the pic would be the last straw to break the camel's back.
When Jor-El's work is done, whatever his 'work'(intentions) are ...protecting Martha & Clark..or whatever, I think he won't need Lionel anymore and dispose of him, meaning, Lionel dies. I think it will happen in the season finale. I do believe though, that it could be that Lionel really did change. But, my belief is that Lionel isn't sick anymore and continues to not be sick, because Jor-El is in him. When Jor-El leaves his body, he will become terminally ill, or he still is and maybe it has progressed (the illness) we just don't see it 'cos It's not Lionel's soul. Then he dies. Do I make sense? I am a bit tipsy, as I had a few drinks and always do on Thursday nights :)...

BadToad

02-16-2006, 10:20 PM

I'm not sure what my opinion is on Lionel at this point, but what an awesome thing to leave us on when the show goes into weeks of reruns. ARGH! Thats a worthy cliffhanger.

Shalamarke

02-16-2006, 10:36 PM

If Jor-El is in Lionel's body, then why all the mystique about the secret?? It was clearly to show that Lionel finally has proof of what he has suspected for a very long time: that Clark is somehow different and has special abilities.

Jor-El doesn't care about Clark's secret. He wants the world of humans to know! He wants Clark to embrace his destiny. How many times has Jor-El warned Clark against letting humans get in the way of his destiny? Jor-El KILLED Clark's father! He has no more regard for the concerns of humans so far in this continuity than Lionel had for his parents as the blew to smitherines.

No... Lionel just got his proof. For something he knew from studying the caves, from stalking Clark, from stealing knowledge from Lex's similar efforts, and from working with/extorting Swann.

Now, the real question is... WHY is his secret "SAFE?" Lionel has wanted this for so long, and to have it is power. Why in the world would he ever keep it??

I can only guess it is because he knows Clark's power, and knows he could never threaten the Kents and so he is holding onto this until he can use it to his advantage somehow. It's the ace in the hole...

lanakk1

02-16-2006, 10:37 PM

Its not Jor-El. Why would Jor-El be trying to hook up with Martha? Why would Jor-El be blackmailing Martha? doesn't make sence.

Happy Random

02-16-2006, 10:43 PM

See, that's why I think that he pops in and out of Lionel. But it is tough to say. :)

Vatusia

02-16-2006, 10:44 PM

Originally posted by Toppa
I believe that he still has the Kryptonian knowledge that the crystal downloaded him with. That's how he knew about the name "Kal - El."

Bingo.

nipvillesmlltuk

02-16-2006, 10:46 PM

Maybe it SEEMS that way. Just to keep you thinking. But, have we actually seen any 'sexual' contact with him and martha? He's just caring for her. And, Lionel would keep clarks secret, because to lionel, Clark has saved him lots of times...even from terminal illness. For me, Clark is more of a son to Lionel than Lex is. I don't know...it was just my opinion...but, I think it is possible. Maybe Jor-El knows that Clark doesn't like him very much and Jor-El is hiding his true identity, because he doesn't want Clark to pull away from him. If Lex were to tell Clark that Lionel had something to do with JK's death, then Clark would be very angry...I don't know. I guess what I said, doesn't make sense...

Vatusia

02-16-2006, 10:50 PM

Oh, absolutely they are going to make Clark into the 'son' Lionel has never had. Imagine how Lex will react to that. :D

nipvillesmlltuk

02-16-2006, 10:56 PM

Ofcourse!! But, Lionel is going to die, I think. And, it will be because of Lex..or Jor-El!

ScottM1956

02-16-2006, 11:00 PM

What if Lionel isn't Lionel, but Swann instead??

When Lionel said, "Your secrets safe with me Kal-El' I thought SWANN!!

hanemg

02-16-2006, 11:04 PM

That's what I thought too.

svsabbiesv

02-16-2006, 11:04 PM

man my jaw dropped! i thought oh ****! and why was I teary eyed!!?? haha I have no idea what smallville is doing to us!! we shall see...season 5 has been outstanding by far...woohoo

KRAM-el

02-16-2006, 11:05 PM

Originally posted by ScottM1956
What if Lionel isn't Lionel, but Swann instead??

When Lionel said, "Your secrets safe with me Kal-El' I thought SWANN!!
I had the same impression... I'm sure the re's a Swann connection. That scene was worth the price of admission!

Billy Jor-El

02-16-2006, 11:06 PM

That ending scene was worth the price of admission! (EDIT NOTE: I hadn't read Kram-El's use of "price of admission" when I wrote this...wow, I guess Chloe worshippers think alike :) ) It was the most awesome moment of the ep....BUT....

Think on this.....

What if Lionel had said, "....your secret is safe with me, Kal-El......................MY SON."

THEN we would know that Lion-El lives.

SuperIncredible

02-16-2006, 11:08 PM

Great episode awesome ending!!

schroepandchloe

02-16-2006, 11:09 PM

I jumped out of my seat when I heard Lionel said that.

Damn I cannot wait until the new episodes come out

WWWWHHHHOOOOOOOOOOOO

Shalamarke

02-16-2006, 11:12 PM

Okay I just had a thought that has me buying the Jor-El is still in Lionel theory...

Can't describe it other than to say that I imagined just for a second that Jor-El really was in Lionel at that moment, and that he had scored the DVD to protect his "son's" identity...

Still... I'm not sure I know why Jor-El cares about his identity. If they go this route, I would have a hard time buying that he does...

Unless its to protect him from .... something spoilery.

Oh and I cried... and I didnt understand why either :)

charmedchick

02-16-2006, 11:13 PM

I really didnt care to much for this episode. It was lacking something.. I really cant put my finger on it.. BUT i totally loved the ending.. Now i am thinking more that Lionel really is Jor El. But you cant be to sure.. and i loved all the martha and lionel scenes..

The one martha scene where she was burning the dvd was very sad.. When she was looking at a picture of Jonathan and she is crying.. Everyone over passes her feelings about the death JK. everyone is all about clark. What about Martha??

God-Man

02-16-2006, 11:20 PM

I got the impression that Jor-El was not in lionel. If he would have said, "my son", at the end, then yeah. I think it's just Lionel trying to protect Clark to get close to Martha. No Jor-El influence.

nipvillesmlltuk

02-16-2006, 11:21 PM

Thanks...it's good to know that some people do understand where I am coming from. I think he won't say who he is yet. Jor-El has his reasons...but, I think it is possible that Lionel is Jor-El..or atleast, some times. Lionel can't hide his feelings for Martha, but it's Jor-El's side, that won't let Lionel act on them. Regardless, Jor-El is a good person, IMO...

Maybe he didn't say "My Son" because it's just to keep us wondering and thinking...I think it will happen at the season finale, when Lionel may die...

charmedchick

02-16-2006, 11:26 PM

I see where you guys are coming from. But there are times that you get the feeling it is Jor El and then others its lionel. I guess the writers know they are doing a great job by keeping us thinking if its Jor El or lionel.. Bravo..

God-Man

02-16-2006, 11:31 PM

Originally posted by nipvillesmlltuk
Thanks...it's good to know that some people do understand where I am coming from. I think he won't say who he is yet. Jor-El has his reasons...but, I think it is possible that Lionel is Jor-El..or atleast, some times. Lionel can't hide his feelings for Martha, but it's Jor-El's side, that won't let Lionel act on them. Regardless, Jor-El is a good person, IMO...

Maybe he didn't say "My Son" because it's just to keep us wondering and thinking...I think it will happen at the season finale, when Lionel may die...

Grrr... I still think Jor-El isn't in there anymore. But I wouldn't be surprised if he was. can't wait to find out.

nipvillesmlltuk

02-16-2006, 11:33 PM

:rotfl: ...ok, ok...I'll stop!! But....

I still think that it's Jor-El :p

Supercanuck

02-16-2006, 11:39 PM

what a way to finish an episode. My hats off to John Glover.

I hope they keep him in the series for a long time :)

tec611

02-16-2006, 11:44 PM

I think the theory that Jor-El is Lionel still and visa versa is not true. If Jor-El were there he would not be so pushy and involved with Martha in the romantic way he keeps pushing. It doesnt make sense. and NO Jor-El is not secretly in love with Martha..come on guys this isnt 'Passions'.

Here is MY theory:

either A. After Jor-El left his body, Lionel felt some unexplainable connection to Clark or need to protect him that he cant explain (because of having Jor-El inhabit him) This is why he called him 'son', and why is so suddenly now trying to protect Clark and Martha without one ounce of explanation for the sudden 180

or B. With Jonathan now out of the picture Lionel see's his chance to finally have Martha, and Clark comes with her. If he gets Martha (to him) he gets Clark as a son. A son who has all these powers and abilities that would allow him to (in Lionels eyes) conquer, be the best, tower over all others. Everything he always wanted LEX TO BE. This would explain why he called him 'son' (trying to slowly establish his place) and why he wants to protect the secret so badly now.

my money is on theory #2...but its smallville and where they are going with Lionel is the biggest mystery yet.

j-kent

02-16-2006, 11:45 PM

hmmm.. i can't wait for more!

anything is pretty much possible..but I just don't have the influence that Jor-el is in Lionel as strongly...

it wouldn't make sense. It's futile to keep his secret as Jor-el's claimed that he wants clark to rule earth...i mean why keep this secret to a petty human in his eyes...but you know it's always at twists and turns so we'll see huh

opera_ghost

02-16-2006, 11:53 PM

this may have already been said in another post.. and if so.. I appologize.. I don't have the time to read them all at the moment... but I do have a theory... after reading the first couple pages....

But, this is in response to the thing in the barn.... What if the knowledge of Lionel and Jor-El have blended... but it's the Lionel whom is the dominant of the two.

Jor-El's main purpose is to protect his son. Lionel has had a thing for martha kent for a very long time... Jor-El sees that as an opportunity to be closer to his son without the 'anger' backlash that he gets when he tries to talk to him.

In Lionel's psyche.. he recognizes what clark is... Jor-El gives him the knowledge that he wanted.. but makes sure that he cannot exploit it.... There'by the change in lionel wasn't due to transferance.. (Though I do believe until his fight with his son... it was genuine)... It's because now... he does have a greater understanding of 'right' and 'wrong.'

Then take it a step further... how would Lex react... if Lionel and Martha end up together as a geuninely happy couple... and he begins to treat clark like a son.... and cares for him in a way that lex had always wanted from him. Not knowing about the Jor-El thing, that would drive an even deeper wedge into Lex's anger.. and a real hatred of clark.

tec611

02-16-2006, 11:55 PM

I dont think Lionel amd Jor-El can merge unless that is what Jor-El WANTED, and I seriously doubt that is what he wants. He needed Lionels body for a short time and he was done with it. Jor-El is very much his own being, own spirit and knows what he wants to accomplish and what he can control. I doubt he would live kinda in the half-way point and be a floater through Lionel like that. ESPECIALLY if Lionel was the dominant of the two...I seriously doubt that would fly

opera_ghost

02-16-2006, 11:55 PM

Originally posted by j-kent
hmmm.. i can't wait for more!

anything is pretty much possible..but I just don't have the influence that Jor-el is in Lionel as strongly...

it wouldn't make sense. It's futile to keep his secret as Jor-el's claimed that he wants clark to rule earth...i mean why keep this secret to a petty human in his eyes...but you know it's always at twists and turns so we'll see huh

"Rule" is the word that was used.. but could mean a great deal of things.. especially to an alien culture in an alien language.

In a way... Superman did "Rule"... he was a leader.. and inspiration... "The light to show the way." even with the superpowers.. he was what we all wished it was possible for us to be... he watched over us... protected us... was an example to us in times of peril.... not unlike the good and just kings in history and literature.

After all... what was the "Watchtower" and the JLA... if not a SuperHero Camelot?

superman_115

02-16-2006, 11:56 PM

yea, talk about a awesome ending.

I had the feeling that Jor-El has been in Lionel since the ending of Season 4.

Great ending.

tec611

02-16-2006, 11:56 PM

Originally posted by opera_ghost
Then take it a step further... how would Lex react... if Lionel and Martha end up together as a geuninely happy couple... and he begins to treat clark like a son.... and cares for him in a way that lex had always wanted from him. Not knowing about the Jor-El thing, that would drive an even deeper wedge into Lex's anger.. and a real hatred of clark.

This would be just as easily if not better accomplished if Lionel did this all on his own without some Jor-El subconcious. That wedge would be genuine and complicate more

fattire

02-16-2006, 11:56 PM

ive heard a better theory, that after he went through the coma he downloaded kryptonian knowledge (thats why he knows about dr fine and kal-el) but its still lionel trying to come to grips with his identity. thats why sometimes he's lionel (as in vengence, minus the ending) and sometimes he's good. this one i feel better explains his personality

or it could just be one badass jor-el. hell I dont know

opera_ghost

02-16-2006, 11:57 PM

Originally posted by tec611
I dont think Lionel amd Jor-El can merge unless that is what Jor-El WANTED, and I seriously doubt that is what he wants. He needed Lionels body for a short time and he was done with it. Jor-El is very much his own being, own spirit and knows what he wants to accomplish and what he can control. I doubt he would live kinda in the half-way point and be a floater through Lionel like that. ESPECIALLY if Lionel was the dominant of the two...I seriously doubt that would fly

I knew it was a stretch when I wrote it... but no more so than a 500 year old witch who's trying to collect the fragments of the elements of the kryptonian history/culture/power.

Maagic

02-17-2006, 12:07 AM

I was expecting the blackmail goon to morph into Brainiac after getting the money, but the ending we got was even better I think :)

tec611

02-17-2006, 12:09 AM

I think its alot different. Isobel was still human when she was alive, she didnt have any powers beyond her death besides the ones she created before she died. MEANING, after she died she could not exist as her own being, work her magic or control anything or anyone. She had to WAIT until the spell she created when she was ALIVE brought her back. And even then Kryptonian stones could hurt her.

Jor-El has all of his powers (if not more) dead as opposed to alive. He can control time, death, life, along with using bodies as a vessel. Isobel only had power when she was alive, or inhabiting Lana. That is why ISOBEL could sorta float around subconciously in Lana and wake up whenever she wanted. She is nowhere NOWHERE as powerful as Jor-El. Isobel NEEDED to stay in Lana to sustain her powers, Jor-El can do **** all he wants and have all the power he needs to do whatever.

fattire

02-17-2006, 12:10 AM

Kryptomaniac

02-17-2006, 12:12 AM

This wasn't Jor-El. This just reinforces the belief that Zod or Braniac or some other baddie has corrupted Jor-El's intended Kal-El self-help course!

tec611

02-17-2006, 12:17 AM

Lois Sullivan, agree 100 percent. Jonathans death is Jonathans fault; not Lionels.

I personally like Lionel, but my main mystery is where the HECK and why did this total 180 in his personality take place?

same question for Jor-El. seasons 2-3 he wanted Clark to rule the world, forget smallville and everyone he loved and forced him to do things he didnt want. He was an oppressor, and a dictator in Clarks life. NOW he is all 'hug me love me' you have to save the human race and help everyone. wth?

opera_ghost

02-17-2006, 12:22 AM

Originally posted by opera_ghost
"Rule" is the word that was used.. but could mean a great deal of things.. especially to an alien culture in an alien language.

In a way... Superman did "Rule"... he was a leader.. and inspiration... "The light to show the way." even with the superpowers.. he was what we all wished it was possible for us to be... he watched over us... protected us... was an example to us in times of peril.... not unlike the good and just kings in history and literature.

After all... what was the "Watchtower" and the JLA... if not a SuperHero Camelot?

quoting myself just for you

^^^

Originally posted by tec611
Lois Sullivan, agree 100 percent. Jonathans death is Jonathans fault; not Lionels.

I personally like Lionel, but my main mystery is where the HECK and why did this total 180 in his personality take place?

same question for Jor-El. seasons 2-3 he wanted Clark to rule the world, forget smallville and everyone he loved and forced him to do things he didnt want. He was an oppressor, and a dictator in Clarks life. NOW he is all 'hug me love me' you have to save the human race and help everyone. wth?

tec611

02-17-2006, 12:27 AM

even though the term 'rule' can be mis-interpretted, He also mentioned he wanted Clark to 'conquer' thats very very hard to mis-interpret! if he wanted Clark to 'help' or 'save'...he woulda just said 'help or save'.

This doesnt solve the fact that Jor-el forced Clark to do things he didnt want to do, and used poor Lindsey to manipulate Clark into going to Jor-El, was trying to get clark to leave behind everyone he loved to further Jor-El's plan, etc. Not to mention his whole demeanor did a complete 180, and thats what I was trying to focus on more instead of his choice of words.

now its like
'I have to help her'
'NO YOU CANT'
'but pplllleeeaassseee'
'oh alright Clark'

vyperman7

02-17-2006, 12:28 AM

This really did make for an awesom ending, and the placement of when to use it was so perfect. What a great way to go into the break. It will definately create some buzz for the last part of the season. Definately one of the best endings they have done.

It does make you wonder though. Will Cyborg be remembered for the episode as a whole, or mainly just for the ending? People are raving about this episode, but it seems like the ending is a major force in how much people liked the episode.

The ending was awesome of course. But the episode as a whole was only decent in my opinion.

opera_ghost

02-17-2006, 12:31 AM

Originally posted by tec611
even though the term 'rule' can be mis-interpretted, He also mentioned he wanted Clark to 'conquer' thats very very hard to mis-interpret! if he wanted Clark to 'help' or 'save'...he woulda just said 'help or save'.

This doesnt solve the fact that Jor-el forced Clark to do things he didnt want to do, and used poor Lindsey to manipulate Clark into going to Jor-El, was trying to get clark to leave behind everyone he loved to further Jor-El's plan, etc. Not to mention his whole demeanor did a complete 180, and thats what I was trying to focus on more instead of his choice of words.

now its like
'I have to help her'
'NO YOU CANT'
'but pplllleeeaassseee'
'oh alright Clark'

Jor-El never used the word Conquer.... he said.. "They are a flawed race my son... rule them with strength."... Clark used the word conquer.

don't put words into jor-el's mouth... he gets to few of them.

:)

Chloe nearly dying was because his education is a very important thing... more important in Jor-El's mind than a single human life.... even superman can't be everywhere at once... he's going to have to learn to make choices.. because he cannot save everyone.

tec611

02-17-2006, 12:36 AM

Well if he never said the term' conquer' he certainly didnt have a problem with making Clark believe thats what he wanted for og, 3 seasons.

and he let Clark get his way with both Chloe and Lana. AND he went in a saved his life...TWICE. It seems like all Clark has to do is say pretty please and Jor-El buckles, very unlike before. He might have not wanted Clark to save Chloe but like I said he eventually caved. And even though he 'punished' clark, he eventually went back and saved him. and then when Lana died he AGAIN have him another chance.

dont get me wrong I always really liked Jor-El in all the superman incarnations, I just never understood why Smallville decided to paint him to be the Stalin of outerspace and then not explain why he turned into sweet 'thats my boy!' type of character

JAY55

02-17-2006, 12:44 AM

On seeing the ending i was like Whoa! what a shocker, i don't even knw wat to think, BuZzArD 8012 has an awesome point, what the hell! but wit lionel's kyrptonian download we know lionel now knows alot but clarks real name hmmm, is it really jor el? or when jor-el possessed lionel some of jor-el's knowledge remained wit lionel, also has jor-el embraced clark's ways and love for human cuz we haven't heard anything about conquering the earth in a while

opera_ghost

02-17-2006, 12:46 AM

I think that in the overall scheme of what it will appear by the time the series is over... is that Jor-El underestimated the bond that clark has with "these humans." That it took time for this 'memory'/'spirit' or whatever he's interacted with... to begin to understand why.

But, I do agree with you in one thing tec... when this whole thing first started.. my reaction was very similar to the point where I was wholly believing that the voice he'd been hearing wasn't Jor-El... but in fact Zod. (Especially when the rumors popped up about the idea of using the character of Zod in smallville episodes.).. Given the actor they cast as his voice... i thought it would have been too perfect. But, then clark went for a swim in liquid kryptonite and remembered his parents' voices... and it was the same voice. Good ole' General Zod himself.. Terrance Stamp.

*Shot that theory all to hell*

So, then I began to go back and try to understand why Jor-El would behave this way... there's only one reasonable explination that I keep coming back to time and time again...

Jor-El assumed that Clark would have automatically understood what he was saying and why. He assumed that as his father he would just listen and obey. He'd not question what his biological father's intensions were for him. And that the Kent's would have remembered his visit and have done all they could to help him understand. That didn't happen.... and he didn't understand why clark was behaving like a petulant child in the face of his destiny.

So, some of those 'punishments' could have been for his own good. Remember, it was Clark who ran away to metropolis... Jor-El didn't send him there... he ran because he couldn't face his destiny. Jor-El loves his son.... his spirit wishes he didn't have to send him away... that's why he was never really a parent. But, even the sweetest parents must punish their children on occasion.

And given what was at stake.. and the fact that the 'blood' seemed to call to brainiac.. and pull him to earth... I can understand why Lionel was angry.

It is however, very shoddy writing that Jor-El didn't just tell him the whole story.. say something like... "Wait Son,... I need you to understand... stay and talk to me.".. until they did reach an understanding. That's a bit more realistic to me.... just not very interesting television.

love_smallville

02-17-2006, 12:46 AM

Whether it was Lionel or Jor-El, all I know is that I could not breathe as he uttered those words..

Brilliant ending!!

tec611

02-17-2006, 12:57 AM

Opera, I agree with you on most things. I would assume that on Krypton children are very very rarely disobedient of their fathers/parents. But Clark was raised by humans and taught to make his own choices, which might explain Jor-El's portrayl as a tyrant in his life, when in fact he was just being the 'kryptonian' father. He realized in order to reach his son he needed to display love and affection like that of his earth parents.

Man, I never thought about the Zod theory. crap. that woulda been good.

anyway either way im still upset they had the show making it seem like Jor-el was a 'monster' like Clark said in Memoria. They really really pushed that Jor-el was evil, tyrannical and monstrous until season 4 finale. thats what upset me, and still left us to conclue the change on our own when something so big of a plot point really should have been SHOWN to us

Basroil

02-17-2006, 01:08 AM

SMallville seems to have made a point of having pointless episodes with awesome endings.... I have watched since day one and I now come to expect that the eps I am not looking forward to have something in them that wI will regret not watching for... lol so I just watch

opera_ghost

02-17-2006, 01:23 AM

and yea tec.... it's piss poor on their parts that something hasn't been done sooner to explain it.

but, I think that may not necessarily be Al/Miles' fault... for the same reasons as to why WB Theatrical.. whole owners of the Superman Liscence... (Because they own DC comics).. may not allow it.

It's the same reason why we haven't seen bruce wayne dispite the fact that they have desperately wanted to do it.

rumpuso

02-17-2006, 05:22 AM

Originally posted by ScottM1956
What if Lionel isn't Lionel, but Swann instead??

When Lionel said, "Your secrets safe with me Kal-El' I thought SWANN!!
How funny...I clicked on this thread so that I could say this very same thing. The Swann vibe was very strong in Lionel for me when he spoke Kal-el's name. However, now I'm left to wonder if Lionel maybe *does* recall the transference with Clark (from season 4) and being downloaded with the Kryptonian language. This Lionel is very intriguing to me. I can't wait to see where the writers take him.

And as an aside, I have to wonder if there is some lab experimentation forshadowing given what Clark said to Victor about saving him from the lab, plus the blackmailing. Someone out there has an agenda. I really wonder what that may be.

Lois Sullivan

02-17-2006, 05:30 AM

I think that the reason that Jor-El did a 180 is because the Jor-El of the fortress, isn't the same as the Jor-El of the caves. It's the same person yes, but I think that the Jor-El of the caves has been corrupted by the Brainiac technology. Remember, Brainiac confirmed Clark's worst suspicions in Solitude. He told Clark that Jor-El sent him to earth to conquer the human race, and recreate Krypton on Earth. How would Brainiac know that? How did Brainiac know Jor-El's intentions if he was inside that ship when Clark was sent to Earth? We know Brainiac is a AI. What if he was created by Jor-El, but was corrupted by Zod. As a result, the Brainiac computer program could have infected Clark's ship before it was sent to earth, changing the message in the ship to the "rule them with strength" message. And when Clark put the key to the ship into the cave walls it had the same effect. It corrupted cave Jor-El's artificial intelligence, just like the ship. That the corrupted version of the AI only wanted Clark to unite the stones, so that the fortress could be built, and Brainiac could release Zod. But the Brainiac computer program can't infect the FOS, so when Jor-El appeared there, he appeared as he truly was on Krypton. The benevolent figure, rather than the twisted version that Brainiac infected.

Be that as it may, I think we may yet get an answer to this puzzle. When they released info way back before the season began, the network and producers promised that once Clark got to the Fortress, Jor-El's true intentions for Clark would come to light, and Clark would begin to understand why he was sent to Earth, and begin to accept his Kryptonian destiny. I think Lionel might be the key to that.

jimmyolsenblues

02-17-2006, 06:28 AM

I believe this has nothing to do with Jor-El.
Lionel was obsessed with Clark from day 1 and that was before Jor-El inhabited Lionel's body.
Jor-El would not be interested in showing the film to martha, he would just simply destroy any and all threats to clark, if he really was interested in truly protecting clark.
The fact that we went through this whole farse with Martha leads me to the only true thing about it.
Lionel and the hots for martha, and is trying to be come ......

Lion-EL step dad of Kal-El

(No, I still have not figured out how Jor-El knew, maybe Margot Kidder spilled the beans?)

M0F0X

02-17-2006, 06:33 AM

Interesting ending indeed.

I think though that Lionel will never be a good guy. He will always have selfish intentions for him and possibly Lex.

If we think about what Lionel's motivations throughout the Smallville series'. He cares about power, being at the top and making sure the Luthor name stays at the top, hoping one day that Lex would succeed him as an almost mini-me of Lionel. The only other thing he has wanted is Martha.

He plans to do something big with this information.

1. Use it to blackmail Martha to marry him.

2. Use it to dethrone Lex at the top of the Luthor tree.

3. Use it to help Lex become even more powerful and take the Luthor name to higher limits of greatness and power.

4. Use it to blackmail Clark to get rid of Lex.

If rumours are true of the whole Lexana relationship then that would give Lionel a perfect opportunity to increase the rivalry between Clark and Lex and potentially give Clark enough fire to do something to Lex when confronted by Lionel about his secret.

I do still feel though that Lionel will die by the end of the series and Clark will be involved even if it is accidental it will look like Clark will do this.

If Lionel does use the information to get Martha and Clark finds out and then finds out (maybe even from Lex somehow) about the Jonathan/Lionel fight, then how many more reasons would he need to go after Lionel. Leading to a potential situation of Clark killing Lionel but not going through with it, but Lionel accidently dying anyway.

It would add to the Lex/Clark thing as they would again be in similar situations (both loving Lana and now both having their fathers die) yet still they manage to go 2 totally seperate ways in life. One following good and the other following evil.

Another possibility (that i don't think has been discussed) is that Chloe will eventually kill Lionel. After his attempted assasignation of her she has got to want revenge. Clark may confide in her about Lionel knowing his secret and she takes it upon herself to rectify the situation. This could result in her being imprisoned. Lois may then take up her job at the Planet and the Lois/Clark partnering may start up in full for next season. Lex will find out in Season 6 that Chloe's murder of Lionel had something to do with Clark, but she won't tell. Lex will indirectly blame Clark for his father's death and again the rivalry will increase.

Same as everyone else, this is all just specualtion and wild theories but I think one certain thing is that Lionel is BAD and will only do BAD things with what he knows.

Ares

02-17-2006, 07:49 AM

ok , so whens the new episode?

an btw Great Ending for a stupid episode

tw190

02-17-2006, 07:57 AM

New episodea are, like, 6 weeks from now, in April. :(

KEakaCK

02-17-2006, 08:01 AM

Looking back, Lionel never really threatened Jonathan...He told JK that they both were willing to kill for the secret before showing JK that picture. I'm wondering if that was Jor-El trying to join forces with JK in protecting Clark but JK didn't know about Jor-El taking over Lionel's body so JK simply could of reacted to Lionel, not knowing it was Jor-El, just a thought. That would explain Lionel calling Clark by his Kryptonian name. I don't buy the idea that Dr. Swann told Lionel because I don't think the writers would mess around with Swann's integrity in keeping Clarks secret. Just my opinion.

Nerial

02-17-2006, 08:24 AM

Honestly, I don't think it's Jor-El himself (like Lionel is gone and it's really Jor-El in there). Here's why:

In Hidden, when John Glover played Jor-El, he did the accent, the body gestures...the whole package. It was really impressive acting, and also a completely different character.

Lionel's actions in this episode alone display a greedy nature to get closer to Martha. One could argue that it's really Jor-El, trying to implant himself inside the Kent household. But, Jor-El has the Fottress, and it's clear his powers are rather strong anyway. Why would he have to be deceptive in this manner in order to get closer to Clark? Also, Lionel's attraction to Martha is rather obvious.

My opinion, it's still Lionel, but just like in Transference, he's been influenced by Jor-El (or the Kryptonian knowledge from the stone) the same way he was influenced by Clark.

Even though he's still a MB, he doesn't seem as evil as he was in Season 3, so I think both possessions (one of Clark, one of Jor-El), have altered his perceptions.

Still don't know exactly how he knew Clark's alien name, but that scene was downright awesome!

lj1234

02-17-2006, 08:28 AM

I think he has selfish motives also. He knows about Clark and how powerful he his, so he wants a piece. He tried to play the "we both know the secret so let's be friends" card with Jonathan to get "in" that way, but it didn't work (or worked well, however you want to look at that). Now that Jonathan's gone, he's wooing Martha into trusting him so he can become "part of the family". He set up the whole blackmail scheme so she'd need him, and to give himself a chance to play the hero. If he wants to know more about Clark, and/or get control of him somehow, what better way to do it? Lots of ways he could have found out about/figured out the Kal-El thing... Lex and Lana know the aliens were looking for a Kal-El, Morgan Edge knew some stuff, Swann, Jor-El, the Transference... plus he's been researching him since the beginning. No idea if he really *likes* Martha or not (guess it's possible), but I think his main goal is to get to Clark.

And Martha's falling for it... ugh!! Oh no, he *tried* to tell me what was on the disk, but I wouldn't *let* him, because *that* doesn't interest me, I just want to *help* you... ugh!!

Wish they'd give us just a bit more to explain Transference... Could he have hatched the plan way back then? Trying to play good guy to get the Kents to trust him (and make Lex out to be the "real" bad guy)? Or did it really "change" him a little for a while... dunno...

lexs&os

02-17-2006, 08:41 AM

I rewatched the scene a few times trying to get a feel for the look on his face when he said that line. It was an awesome scene!

livin73

02-17-2006, 08:49 AM

1. Lionel is not possessed by Jor-El anymore. That was a one-time deal.

2. Lionel hired the guy to threaten Martha. The whole point was so that Lionel could come in like a hero and "save" her. Then she'd start trusting him. He even did the reverse psychology thing of saying she would be better off not hanging around him. He knew she'd actually do the opposite.

3. Lionel knows a lot more about Clark than he lets on. How does he know all of this? We don't know yet.

4. The reason Clark's secret is safe with Lionel is because there is power in knowledge. If Lionel is the only one that knows about Clark, that gives him some sort of power over Clark and Martha.

mcgairman

02-17-2006, 09:07 AM

muffinpeddler

02-17-2006, 09:13 AM

What I want to know is that if Lionel is really Lion-El, what's the whole fascination with Martha? Or is it just normal Lionel, who nows that such a powerful secret should be kept in reserve until the proper time to use it for his own ends?

Tomsgurl88

02-17-2006, 09:15 AM

Man what a shocker, when lionel was watching the video and they showed clark i screamed holy ****!!!! and then when he called him kal-el i was like WTF???? This is a huge cliffhanger and i cannot WAIT to see what happens!

Crazy4Smallville

02-17-2006, 09:36 AM

Originally posted by tec611
I think the theory that Jor-El is Lionel still and visa versa is not true. If Jor-El were there he would not be so pushy and involved with Martha in the romantic way he keeps pushing. It doesnt make sense. and NO Jor-El is not secretly in love with Martha..come on guys this isnt 'Passions'.

Here is MY theory:

either A. After Jor-El left his body, Lionel felt some unexplainable connection to Clark or need to protect him that he cant explain (because of having Jor-El inhabit him) This is why he called him 'son', and why is so suddenly now trying to protect Clark and Martha without one ounce of explanation for the sudden 180

or B. With Jonathan now out of the picture Lionel see's his chance to finally have Martha, and Clark comes with her. If he gets Martha (to him) he gets Clark as a son. A son who has all these powers and abilities that would allow him to (in Lionels eyes) conquer, be the best, tower over all others. Everything he always wanted LEX TO BE. This would explain why he called him 'son' (trying to slowly establish his place) and why he wants to protect the secret so badly now.

my money is on theory #2...but its smallville and where they are going with Lionel is the biggest mystery yet.

I completely agree with your second theory.

Originally posted by livin73
1. Lionel is not possessed by Jor-El anymore. That was a one-time deal.

2. Lionel hired the guy to threaten Martha. The whole point was so that Lionel could come in like a hero and "save" her. Then she'd start trusting him. He even did the reverse psychology thing of saying she would be better off not hanging around him. He knew she'd actually do the opposite.

3. Lionel knows a lot more about Clark than he lets on. How does he know all of this? We don't know yet.

4. The reason Clark's secret is safe with Lionel is because there is power in knowledge. If Lionel is the only one that knows about Clark, that gives him some sort of power over Clark and Martha.

Absolutely!!!

I don't think Lionel has behaved anyway like Jor-El.

Maybe Lionel is in league with Professor Fine - and Fine is feeding him information to manipuate the Kents - even cause Jonathan's death. The photos, secrets and everything like the name Kal-El are being fed to Lionel by Fine (Braniac).

ballofsteel

02-17-2006, 09:39 AM

I don't think Jor-El possesing Lionel was a one off. Simply because Jor-El told Clark that he will use Lionel's body as a 'vessel', 'when needed' and I think he will need to before the end of the season.

Remember, Jor-El only possesed Lionel when Clark died. Before that he was basically brain dead. It will take something major to trigger him again.

Watching Smallville

02-17-2006, 09:41 AM

Originally posted by hanemg
This is way out of left field, but did Swann ever have possession of the mind transfer stone? And if so, could Lionel be Swann or possibly Crosby? That might even explain why Jor-El chose Lionel's body for that little heart to heart with Clark.

Now, I have no idea why Swann or Crosby would have tried to blackmail Jonathan or get in good with Martha, but once that thought came to mind following the words "Your secret is safe with me, Kal-El" which were so similar to what Swann said I couldn't get it out of my head.

So, what does everyone else think?
I'm out there in left field with you. At the end of transferrence Crosby says to Lionel's cell mate "Do you have what we asked for?" and he gives her the black stone. Interesting idea, especially the way Lionel says the line. There's just so much Lionel left in Lionel -- memory and feelings for Martha, I'm thinking probably not. But it's intriguing.

I love the Lionel story. Right now, it's in a tie with Evil Lex as the most interesting part of the show.

Bladesworn

02-17-2006, 09:51 AM

I have a feeling while during Hidden, Jor-El and Lionel had a little talk. Jor-El seems to know the future or at least has some foreknowledge of things to come.

Jor-El tells Lionel that they can strike a deal. Jor-El will make sure Lionel stays healthy (and that nasty liver disease of his doesn't come back. Clark's inhatibiting his body wasn't a cure but a delay in the inevitable). Jor-El also promises Lionel that he will help him win the love of Martha Kent.

In exchange, Lionel does everything to protect Clark's secret from any future menaces as well as ensuring that Lex stays out of becoming Zegith (spelling? Whatever the legend has that Clark's fated enemy is).

Jor-El has always called Clark, My Son or Kal-El.

Swann started to call Clark, Kal-El, but switched to Clark after Clark insisted that wasn't his name.

Lionel still has free will, as was in Vengeance where he might be the one manipulating companies to buyout neighborhoods and go after Lex's holdings.

I don't think Jor-El cares too much about humans and will use/manipulate them as much as possible to make sure Clark survives and isn't in danger.

God-Man

02-17-2006, 10:37 AM

Originally posted by nipvillesmlltuk
:rotfl: ...ok, ok...I'll stop!! But....

I still think that it's Jor-El :p

oooooh! :mad:

:p

It's all good. :)

Shreas

02-17-2006, 10:58 AM

Jor-el is not inhabiting Lionel nor can he jump in an out of Lionel to make him do things. If you remember what Jor-el said to Clark in Hidden:

"When this body was activated by the crystal is became an oracle of Kryptonian knowledge, a vessel for me to inhabit if ever you should need me. That time WAS now."

Key word being "was". I think this means that it was a one time deal. However, I still think that Lionel retained the knowledge of Clark and his destiny, and now that he knows the bigger picture (and since he's a "new man"), he's going to protect Clark.

Also, when Lionel talks to Lex at the end of the episode, he acts very non-chalant about being catatonic - he plays it off as if it were nothing. This leads me to believe that he is hiding the truth from Lex (they also have a hardcore stare-down at the end of the scene).

jimmyolsenblues

02-17-2006, 11:22 AM

Why would Jor-El be interested in Martha.
Only Lionel has the hots for martha.
If Jor-El wanted to help Clark, Lex would have been dead long ago.

greggbray

02-17-2006, 11:23 AM

I'm pretty much with your take on this one. I don't think Lionel knew at the end of Transference, and I think his change was shortlived thanks to the events in Onyx. 'We're Luthors'

But, after the first three episodes this season, particularly Hidden, I think it's fair to assume that Lionel still has a great deal of the knowledge imparted to him from the crystal/Jor-El. He was uploaded with a different personality for a time, and when that time left, the memory of it still stayed.

So, Lionel is free to
a.) LUST after Martha, as he has done from the show's beginning
b.) KNOW Kal-El's secret and
c.) continue his banter with his son, in an attempt to regain control of the company

Interesting character, and what an ACTOR! I look forward with glee to each and every one of John Glover's scenes.

fa8362

02-17-2006, 11:24 AM

"Key word being "was". I think this means that it was a one time deal."

I don't. I think it's just copy in a script that could just as randomly have said "is."

MyOwnSuperhero

02-17-2006, 12:55 PM

Originally posted by fa8362
"Key word being "was". I think this means that it was a one time deal."

I don't. I think it's just copy in a script that could just as randomly have said "is." We are talking about the scene that has effected every episode and scene since then. Do you honestly think that would be anything but one of the most carefully written scenes on the show? Maybe it was also random when he said that someone close to Clark would die...:rolleyes:

Here are the big questions raised by Lionel's Kal-El comment:

- Where did he learn everything? Only a few people on the planet have known Kal-El's name

Clark
Jonathan and Martha
Jor-El
Swann
Crosby
Kara
Chloe
Pete
Brainiac/Fine

The question is, who did he learn it all from?

- How long has he known?

Since Transference?
Since Commencement?
Since Hidden?

- So is he good or bad? If he's good, just how long has he been good?

- Is he still Lion-El?

- What, with this new info, do we make of Lionel's "I have returned" scene with Lex in Vengance?

Watching Smallville

02-17-2006, 01:42 PM

I do believe that Lionel lost his memory in Transference. But who drove him away from jail when he was released? We still don't know. And Lionel was protecting Clark before Commencement -- he shot Jason just as he was about to tell Lex something about Clark.

I think he's good. I don't think he's Lion-El. I don't believe Jor-El would say anything about protecting Clark's secret. And I think the "I have returned statement" was not about Lionel returning to his old evil self. I think it meant something else. But what, I'm not sure.

ClLaLeChFAN01

02-17-2006, 01:48 PM

I thought it was Jason's mom that got Lionel out of jail and drove him away. I would have to see the scene again but I could've sworn that she said it was her that got him out of prison.

puddinpiester

02-17-2006, 02:00 PM

I don't agree that Lionel "killed" Pa Kent. They had angry words with each other, but Lionel couldn't have predicted what the catecholamine surge would have done to Jonathan's heart. Jonathan died of a heart attack. Not a slit throat, a gunshot wound to the brain, and not a severe head trauma event. A heart attack. Heck, I've been as mad at a checker in the grocery store for overcharging me $2 for the lunchmeat. I didn't die of a heart attack just because I was fighting mad. What about roads rage?? All those people do not die because they get mad. No, I don't buy it that Lionel killed Jonathan. I do not think Lionel planned for Jonathan to die (at least not at that exact moment). I do agree that Lionel may be taking full advantage of Jonathan's fortuitous death--now he can move in on Martha without Jonathan beating him up. Just who is Lionel? I don't know, but it is one thing that will keep me watching.

superspider02

02-17-2006, 02:15 PM

yea liek others say i think he retained knowledge from the dl stone and possible from when jor-el used him but is he good or evil is still the question and is he manuiplating every one for some other reason besides trying to get with martha.

Watching Smallville

02-17-2006, 02:17 PM

Originally posted by ClLaLeChFAN01
I thought it was Jason's mom that got Lionel out of jail and drove him away. I would have to see the scene again but I could've sworn that she said it was her that got him out of prison.
Yes, I do remember that. I guess it was the way Lionel said "I should have known" made me think there was more to it. We never saw who drove him away -- but I remember her saying she got him out.

sdcheesehead

02-17-2006, 02:40 PM

Excellent Cliffhanger.

Can Jor-El pop in and out of bodies at will? I was wondering this, and finally it hit me. Last night, I watched the "Talisman" episode. Remember when Clark is stabbed by that Krytonian knife. Martha & Jonathon show up at the house, and Clark is passed out on the floor, bleeding. Jonathon places his hands on Clark's wound (while Martha is gathering towels to clean Clark up with) to stop the bleeding. All of a sudden there is a glow, and Clark's wound is healed, and all that is left is a scar. Jonathon is shocked at what has happened, and can't explain it. He remembers what he did, just doesn't know how he was able to do it. The next morning, when they tell Clark about it, he says "It's looks like Jor-El not done with either one of us".

I guess it's possible for Jor-El to pop in and out of Lionel's body. when he feels it's necessary. On the same note, I believe that Lionel would retain anything that happened, while he was inhabiting his body.

clark25

02-17-2006, 02:49 PM

I to enjoyed that little cliffhanger at the
end I think it was Jor-El speaking threw
lionel to anywho it will be very interesting
to see how all of that plays out down the
toward the season finale

Flying Dutchman

02-17-2006, 02:50 PM

Originally posted by MyOwnSuperhero
Only a few people on the planet have known Kal-El's name
Clark
Jonathan and Martha
Jor-El
Swann
Crosby
Kara
Chloe
Pete
Brainiac/Fine

Unfortunately this isn't exactly correct --- Lex, Lana, Lois and anyone who was near the Kryptonians in 5.1 knows the name Kal-el

Heck, Lana even said "I know where Kal-El is"

so -- my theory is that Lionel simply Asked one of the witnesses what happened... and they probably said something like "they were looking for someone named Kal-El..."
2+2=Clark

The Ship!

02-17-2006, 02:59 PM

Originally posted by LuckyKrypto
Don't you wonder if maybe Lionel is Brainiac??

Holly Crp! You could be right!!! But then what happened to the real lionel?? Did he die already?

Man, that would make much much more sense!!!!!!!!

TML

02-17-2006, 03:02 PM

I think Lionel knows and this is the first true sign that he's history in the finale.

God-Man

02-17-2006, 03:11 PM

Originally posted by TML
I think Lionel knows and this is the first true sign that he's history in the finale.

I was thinking the same thing. If you know Clark's secret and you're not Martha, you will die very soon thereafter.

The Ship!

02-17-2006, 03:12 PM

Its Brainiac. But what gets to me is that if Jonathan died by his own doing, does that count as the promised death Jorel made?

We know when Jorel speaks theres that hollow sound he makes, but recently we haven't heard that.

Third, when Brainiac was in the FOS, where was Jorel?? Why wouldn't he warn his son of an eminent danger??

Confused but something is clear... Martha is very stupid and we know where Clark gets it from!!!!

I miss Jonathan!

FallenStar

02-17-2006, 03:44 PM

Originally posted by God-Man
I was thinking the same thing. If you know Clark's secret and you're not Martha, you will die very soon thereafter.

I agree, cuz they're not gonna keep him alive. . .

this is gonna cause some MAJOR tension between the luthors, so i can see y Lex is gonna go evil VERY FAST

and one could also argue that CHloe's good as dead, but I dont see that for a while. . .

tec611

02-17-2006, 04:21 PM

Originally posted by The Ship!
Its Brainiac. But what gets to me is that if Jonathan died by his own doing, does that count as the promised death Jorel made?

We know when Jorel speaks theres that hollow sound he makes, but recently we haven't heard that.

Third, when Brainiac was in the FOS, where was Jorel?? Why wouldn't he warn his son of an eminent danger??

Confused but something is clear... Martha is very stupid and we know where Clark gets it from!!!!

I miss Jonathan!

It doesnt matter HOW Jonathan died, just that he died. he died, it counts.

I never notice this hollow sound? it just sounds like Terrance Stamp to me

Jor-El (IMO) didnt get involved in the FOS/Braniac catastrophe because of a few reasons
1. He needed to give Clark space to allow him to fix this himself, to fight himself, to prove himself. In a way, he was testing his son.
2. Clark got himself into that mess by believing whatever braniac was feeding to him. He made his own bed so he can friggin lay in it.
3. One of the reasons Clark brought braniac there was because he believed Jor-El would actually hurt his mother like that, cause her pain and send her that virus directly to kill her. Clark didnt even go to or ask Jor-El anything about it, he just blindly believed Braniac and followed him like a sheep to do something incredibly rash and drastic like destroying the FOS. HELLO BDA, at least make SURE Jor-El sent the virus before you do something so friggin dumb.

I disagree about Martha being stupid; she is alone and overwhelmed by her new responsibility to protect Clark and keep his secret on her own. On top of being the senator now. She did what she thought was best. And considering that Lionel is pretty trustworthy now and actually does care about Martha and Clark, as long as she doesnt give into his romantic advances for her and maintains the boundry of friendship she is doing nothing wrong.

Clark is a BDA on his own, not martha's fault!;)

ballofsteel

02-17-2006, 04:22 PM

Remember also, a couple of weeks ago when Lionel made that 'Son' comment after Clark saved him.....

Mr. Spoiler

02-17-2006, 04:39 PM

Remember in Vengence when Clark saved Lionel, Lionel called him "son". I've never heard Lionel call Lex "son" with the deep fondness that came across for Clark. Lionel wasn't shocked that the chic jumped out the window to escape not to die.

At the same time I don't know if I buy this Jor-El in Lionel. But I think that would be a little corny. But being corny is not beyond the writers, especially the 100th episode.

But it does seem as though the Lionel we know and hate would have just had that guy he paid off .... ki.... well expired. That means this other guy has Clark's secret. Help me out, the only FREE people with Clark's secret are other superheroes. All the others are locked up in jail or the mental hospital. EXCEPT for my man Pete. Which means ..... I GOT IT!!! Lionel only paid the guy off to meet with Ms. Kent. That guy does not know what was on the disc. Then again with these writers who the hell knows. If they can bring Lana back to life just to kill Mr. Kent... shoot friggin knows..

Basroil

02-17-2006, 04:46 PM

anyone think maybe Swann told Lionel something?

tec611

02-17-2006, 04:53 PM

Originally posted by Basroil
anyone think maybe Swann told Lionel something?

I dont think they would turn Swann into a semi-villian. merely because Chris Reeve played him, and you dont mess with that. It would put alot of people off if they turned him into a villian or a manipulator, the guy is practically annointed to saint hood in the superman mytho's circle. actually...just in general. especially when he started as such a support system and ally to Clark. You dont want to turn the character that taught clark about his past/history/home into Lionels goon.

and since the actor passed away, you wouldnt want to mess with a character oto much you cant bring back. Or instill a need in the audience to see that character again, when you cant bring them back.

Happy Random

02-17-2006, 05:53 PM

Originally posted by Basroil
anyone think maybe Swann told Lionel something?

I wonder if somehow Lionel/Jor-El got his hands on some of Swanns old files and stuff about Krypton. And even though they can't use Dr. Swann anymore, maybe they could bring Linda Carter on as his other assistant or something to kind of continue that stuff. :)

LCfootballWR26

02-17-2006, 06:00 PM

I highly doubt that he is Jor-el. It would be too hard for them to pull that storyline off. Imo, I think that like stated above, he probaly was in connection with Swann, and his feelings for martha are probaly whats preventing him from exposing the secret. Maybe he feels that he can be a father figure to clark where he failed with Lex? I don't know, but chances are he either remembered from the transference episode, or he simply was informed through swann? Or Possibly, remember when he was in Bell Reeve from Kryptonian overload and jor-el took him over? Maybe he still remembers that.

bobser

02-17-2006, 06:03 PM

gebes

02-17-2006, 06:10 PM

It is an interesting turn of events, and I have been wondering for a while now, if Jor-El left a "residual memory" in Lionel.

As I thought there have been hints to this throughout S5.

Can't wait till the hiatus is over, as S5 has been pretty good so far!

Snarf

02-17-2006, 06:41 PM

Exellent exellent exellent exellent

:)

Lionel is growning more and more interesting.
So he did the whole thing to get closer to MArtha, or he just bought the info and didn`t know from before?

DARKRAGE

02-17-2006, 07:48 PM

for me I think Lional knows the secret
Brainiac: Why would he keep the secret
Jor-el: Why would he even speak these words

RockGod815

02-17-2006, 08:35 PM

puddinpiester

02-17-2006, 08:51 PM

I agree with lois Sullivan, I think, at least sort of. The catechalomine surge produced by Jonathan's anger is what set in motion the physiological events which probably caused the heart attack. I don't think Lionel purposefully caused the heart attack. I don't think that Jonathan would have knowingly done something to kill himself. I'm not even sure I believe Jor el caused it. I'd rather think that Jor el knew fate well enough that he could predict that a life would be taken in exchange for Jor el bringing Clark back to life. So, maybe it is not Clark's fault that Jonathan is dead. Afterall, Clark did NOT ask to be resurrected. Jor el felt that Clark's life was to important to be lost. I think spit sometimes happens and Jonathan died because of fate and fate's balance.

Shadow09

02-17-2006, 09:02 PM

The Ship!

02-17-2006, 09:11 PM

Look, everyone knows Clark is young and still learning. It is possible an advance race could predict future events as Jorel knew that by giving powers to Pakent that would be devastating to his heart.
Also Brainiac doesn't really hate CLark, merely he just wants his master to return. The future is CLark, not Lex nor LIonel, not earth only, but the Big UNiverse and the hunt for justice everywhere. Brainiac just has a smaller faith than Clark in humanity from all of his research.

But CLark's humanity is really what is ALien to other kryptonian..even his father Jorel. So as it stands Clark knows he can only be what he is...a hybrid (1/2 Kryptonian, 1/2 Human). He just has the best of both world, but also the weakness of both as well.

Martha is still stupid because she doesn't show strengh, and seems like another Lana Lang in the making. She doesn't even have the wit of Chloe to figure out that Lionel was being funny and fishy. Why would you insult your husband's long fight against the Luther ...by accepting the charm and money of them. In this episode we see how both father and son use bait and switch, fear tactics, towards the weak mind who will beleive anything if you appear to mean it.

Wake up Martha.....its Lionel....it Lex. They will never change because they are who they are. Clark needs to find out what his mom has been up to....

jimmyolsenblues

02-17-2006, 09:22 PM

The catechalomine surge produced by Jonathan's anger

I have never heard of that word, so I looked it up.

High catecholamine levels in blood are associated with stress. Catecholamines cause general physiological changes that prepare the body for physical activity (fight-or-flight response). Some typical effects are increases in heart rate, blood pressure, and blood glucose levels. Some drugs, like tolcapone (a central COMT-inhibitor), raise the levels of all the catecholamines.

Lois Sullivan

02-17-2006, 10:01 PM

I don't get why people aren't more open to the fact that Lionel really has changed. Ever since Transference there hasn't been anything from Lionel to suggest he's not one hundred percent genuinely different. If you watch Seasons 1-3 Lionel, and season's 4-5 Lionel, you can tell that there has been a serious change with that character. The way he moves through a room. The way he talks. His mannerisms. It used to be so easy to peg Lionel as evil. He'd have a way of stalking you. He'd toy with you, circling around you like a vulture when he was trying to manipulate and scare you. But not anymore. Now he just comes up and speaks his mind. He looks you in the eye, and he's open with you. An actor doesn't just pull off a change in his character like that overnight unless he's told to by the director's and producers.

myankskent

02-17-2006, 10:46 PM

Originally posted by Lois Sullivan
I don't get why people aren't more open to the fact that Lionel really has changed. Ever since Transference there hasn't been anything from Lionel to suggest he's not one hundred percent genuinely different. If you watch Seasons 1-3 Lionel, and season's 4-5 Lionel, you can tell that there has been a serious change with that character. The way he moves through a room. The way he talks. His mannerisms. It used to be so easy to peg Lionel as evil. He'd have a way of stalking you. He'd toy with you, circling around you like a vulture when he was trying to manipulate and scare you. But not anymore. Now he just comes up and speaks his mind. He looks you in the eye, and he's open with you. An actor doesn't just pull off a change in his character like that overnight unless he's told to by the director's and producers.

How was the scene where he poisoned Jason's mom last season not vintage lionel? That was after transference. How about Lionel's decision to have the doctors operate on Lex in Lexmas and sacrificing his life in doing so. If Lionel really was 100 percent reformed, he would've been happy to have a crippled son than to not have a son at all. Also, why fund Jonathan's campaign and then attempt to threaten Jonathan in the loft in Reckoning, very much like he did back in season 2 when we saw the flashback to lionel fixing Clark's adoption. That seems to be vintage lionel as well. So far, the only good thing that he has done is recognize that lex is starting to slip, although it is his fault to begin with that Lex is turning to the dark side.

Lois Sullivan

02-17-2006, 10:56 PM

Originally posted by myankskent
How was the scene where he poisoned Jason's mom last season not vintage lionel? That was after transference. How about Lionel's decision to have the doctors operate on Lex in Lexmas and sacrificing his life in doing so. If Lionel really was 100 percent reformed, he would've been happy to have a crippled son than to not have a son at all. Also, why fund Jonathan's campaign and then attempt to threaten Jonathan in the loft in Reckoning, very much like he did back in season 2 when we saw the flashback to lionel fixing Clark's adoption. That seems to be vintage lionel as well. So far, the only good thing that he has done is recognize that lex is starting to slip, although it is his fault to begin with that Lex is turning to the dark side.

And I already gave reasons for each one of these things before. In this very thread. Go back and read them before bringing them up all over again. He poisoned Genevieve in exchange for the stone, and the understanding that if she ever came after Lex, (Like she had threatened to do in an earlier scene, and to which Lionel warned Lex and Lex blew him off) whatever happened to him would happen to her. In Lexmas, the whole "rather I die than have a cripple as a son" was Lex's interpetation of the event. Not Lionel's. Lionel told Lex that he was trying to save his life. Lex threw the cripple thing in his face. And again. For the thousandth time. Rewatch the loft scene, Lionel never threatened Jonathan in Reckoning. He told him he wanted a partner for God's sakes. "i don't want a puppet, I want partner" and he told him, like jonathan, he too was willing to die to protect Clark's secret. Those aren't the words of a threatening man. Lionel has done everything he can to change, and protect Clark at whatever costs. Including murder in Fanatic.

myankskent

02-17-2006, 11:50 PM

Originally posted by Lois Sullivan
And I already gave reasons for each one of these things before. In this very thread. Go back and read them before bringing them up all over again. He poisoned Genevieve in exchange for the stone, and the understanding that if she ever came after Lex, (Like she had threatened to do in an earlier scene, and to which Lionel warned Lex and Lex blew him off) whatever happened to him would happen to her. In Lexmas, the whole "rather I die than have a cripple as a son" was Lex's interpetation of the event. Not Lionel's. Lionel told Lex that he was trying to save his life. Lex threw the cripple thing in his face. And again. For the thousandth time. Rewatch the loft scene, Lionel never threatened Jonathan in Reckoning. He told him he wanted a partner for God's sakes. "i don't want a puppet, I want partner" and he told him, like jonathan, he too was willing to die to protect Clark's secret. Those aren't the words of a threatening man. Lionel has done everything he can to change, and protect Clark at whatever costs. Including murder in Fanatic.

What do you think Lionel would do if Jonathan told him to go to hell in the loft? The problem is, it never got to that point because Jonathan took immediate action. Lionel didn't have a chance to threaten him, showing him the picture was threatening enough. I don't see how you can interpret it any differently. Wanting to be partners is something that Lionel never told Martha when he agreed to fund Jonathan's campaign. The reason he said was because he didn't want Lex to have the power. Now he of course changes his tune and wants something in return, a part of the senate. The picture was shown to Jonathan in case he were to decline. Instead, Jonathan decided to attack Lionel. As for Lexmas, I'm sorry but you make no sense to me in your above post. That was Lex's interpretation of the event? How is that exactly. Did you not watch the scenes where Lionel was talking to the doctors where the doctors strongly urged Lionel not to go ahead with the procedure and Lionel was only concerned with him walking? How is that Lex's interpretation of what happened when he was unconscious. As for Genevieve, he poisoned her to get his hands on the stone, plain and simple. He changed back into the old Lionel in Onyx when Lex cut his face with the sword. Prior to that, Lionel had no interest in the stones which is why he had nothing to do with the Shanghai trip when Lex tried to get the stone. After Onyx, Lionel suddenly cared about the stones and the power again.

Lois Sullivan

02-18-2006, 12:38 AM

Originally posted by myankskent
What do you think Lionel would do if Jonathan told him to go to hell in the loft? The problem is, it never got to that point because Jonathan took immediate action. Lionel didn't have a chance to threaten him, showing him the picture was threatening enough. I don't see how you can interpret it any differently. Wanting to be partners is something that Lionel never told Martha when he agreed to fund Jonathan's campaign. The reason he said was because he didn't want Lex to have the power. Now he of course changes his tune and wants something in return, a part of the senate. The picture was shown to Jonathan in case he were to decline. Instead, Jonathan decided to attack Lionel. As for Lexmas, I'm sorry but you make no sense to me in your above post. That was Lex's interpretation of the event? How is that exactly. Did you not watch the scenes where Lionel was talking to the doctors where the doctors strongly urged Lionel not to go ahead with the procedure and Lionel was only concerned with him walking? How is that Lex's interpretation of what happened when he was unconscious. As for Genevieve, he poisoned her to get his hands on the stone, plain and simple. He changed back into the old Lionel in Onyx when Lex cut his face with the sword. Prior to that, Lionel had no interest in the stones which is why he had nothing to do with the Shanghai trip when Lex tried to get the stone. After Onyx, Lionel suddenly cared about the stones and the power again.

Yes. Lionel acted against the doctor's suggestions, in order to assure his son would walk again. And Lex did EXACTLY the same thing four years ago. Tempest. The exact same situation. Lionel had become inured. Suffered spinal damage. One doctor suggested against surgery, and it was left in Lex's hand, and he made the decision to go ahead with the surgery. Lionel even told Lex later that if the roles were reversed he would have made the exact same decision. He would have had the doctor's operate on him if it meant he could walk again. So no, you can't count that against Lionel. We've known for years he would have done that.

Again, he posioned Genevieve to get the stone, and protect Lex. He warned Lex of Genevieve before doing so, but Lex blew him off. So he took the matter into his own hands. what did he do with the stone after that? Kept it, for two more episodes. In which time he was tortured for it, and refused to give it up. And ended up nearly killing a man to protect the secret that it was connected to Clark. Which Lex pointedly said to him in forever

Transcribed from "Forever"
Jason: "Clark's more connected to this than any of us. Think about it. The symbols burned onto the Kent Farm. The Fields. Why can't you see what's right in front of your face. It's Clark. He's--"

Bang. Luthor shoots him.

Lionel:"You saved my life son, I was returning the favor. He was going to kill you..."

Lex: "Or divulge something you didn't want me to know"

As far as Jonathan and Lionel go?

Transcript from Reckoning

LIONEL: Senator Jonathan Kent. And I didn't expect you to duck out of your victory party tonight but I'm here, and I'm alone, as you requested.

JONATHAN: Good. So why don't you come over here and face me you son of a *****.

LIONEL: Oh.. perhaps a few lessons in tact.. Senator. Now that you're gonna be in the public eye..

JONATHAN: Why don't you just cut the crap, Luthor. Sure I know my campaign accepted funds from you, but I also know I'm gonna pay 'em all back so I won't owe you a thing.

LIONEL: I wonder how far that virtuous stance will get you once you're in, uh, office.

JONATHAN: I just want to make sure you understand you don't have a puppet here.

LIONEL: I should hope not. I didn't put my financial and political clout behind a candidate who would be anyone's..puppet I envision this rather as a, uh.. a partnership.

JONATHAN: The day you and I become partners will be the day-

LIONEL: Careful, careful, careful, Senator. Don't forget, you and I have a, uh, common interest. One that, uh both of us would, uh, protect with our lives.I have nothing but respect for a man who would deliberately hurl himself into the spotlight with such a dangerous secret that must stay hidden.

JONATHAN: I won't let you destroy my family. We can withstand anything you bring down on us..because we have each other. That's what will always separate the Kents from the Luthors.[gasping] Now why don't you get.. why don't you get the hell off my property.

Notice three things. One. Jonathan asked to meet with Lionel at the barn, not the other way around. Two. Lionel said he wanted this to be a partnership. Three. Lionel was using the photograph not to blackmail, but to show he wanted to support Jonathan: "Don't forget, you and I have a common interest. One that both of us would protect with our lives. I have nothing but respect for a man who would deliberately hurl himself into the spotlight with such a dangerous secret that must stay hidden."

tec611

02-18-2006, 01:31 AM

Lois Sullivan, I agree 100%

and also, Jor-El did not cause Jonathans death. I keep reading this that somehow Jor-El willed it or something.

Jonathan died because his heart was crap. the interaction HE STARTED in the barn with Lionel aggravated it to the point of it giving out. This was NATURE, not Jor-El.

Jor-El only knew someone would die because he understood how the way of life balanced itself out. Jor-El is another being, and not only that he has seen his planet destroyed and died himself; he knows a little more about the balance of life than they do. Hence, he knew that by saving Clark someone had to die close to him. He didnt have a mapped out plan of who was to die and what order and what would happen if Clark wanted to go back and change it...I don't think Jor-El knew who would die anymore than Clark did.

It wasnt at Jor-El's hand. Jonathan had a bad heart that he rarely took care of like he should (missing doctors appointments, choosing to do strenuous farm chores on his own, refusing help and rest, etc.) then putting more stress on himself by running for senate and keeping clarks secret at the same time=big bad heart attack. makes perfect sense.

The Ship!

02-18-2006, 06:34 AM

My point still stands...

norman619

02-18-2006, 08:31 AM

Originally posted by Lana_Lang #1
Lionel "Your secret is safe with me, Kal-El"

Oh ****!

That is what was going through my mind when I saw exactly what the video was and then when I heard Lionel say that I was completely shocked!

So I guess this answers the quesdtion that has been on everyone's mind since Hidden, has Jor-El been inside Lionel all this time?

The answer is yes!

Once again Smallville does it with one of the most powerful episode endings I've ever seen!

Reckoning
Vengence
Tomb
Now Cyborg!

My heart is now even more filled with hope and overwhelming anticipation for the rest of the season than ever!

Great Job!

Umm.... no....

It was obvious that vid was of Clark. What else could they have had on mah Kent? Duh!!! It's also obvious that Lionel knew who Clark was many episodes back. Even back to those incredibly stupid witch episodes. He knew who the stones were for. There were no revelations here. Only confirmations. Lionel has not gone back to his old ways as many people on here either wish he would and felt he had. It's cool to see more of his warm human side. He's had clark's back for a long time. Anyone with a brain could have figured that out again many episodes ago. I only wish they had done more with Cyborg. He's my fav member of the Titans. LOL

SuperStrength

02-18-2006, 08:32 AM

Firstly, he could be Jor-El. And that is really possible, but i cannot stop thinking, why is he onto Martha so much.

I mean, what does Jor-El have to do with Martha. He is in love with her ?! No way.

He can be Jor-El, and what he did to Jonathan maybe to kill him. Because Jor-El told Clark that he would take a live for his. So, maybe he did that.

But the possibility of the knowledge download from the stone is much more available i think :)

puddinpiester

02-18-2006, 08:40 AM

I agree with Lois Sullivan and Tec611. Fate/nature killed Jonathan. Not Clark. Not Lionel. Not Jor el. It seemed like that in Solitude when Martha was dying, when Clark went to ask Jor el not to kill his mother, Jor el said he had nothing to do with Martha's condition. Maybe he didn't know that it was Brainiac who was pulling the strings. Maybe Jor el, at that point, thought that Martha was the one fate/nature was coming after.

I_am_LEX

02-18-2006, 08:58 AM

obviously, its one of two things as far as him knowing the truth... either It's jor-el which makes sense, because i dont really remember Lionel being one who talked with himself or thought out loud... or two, the information from being the kryptonian oracle of knowledge was left in him and he knows that way... and knows he has to help Clark... remember when he got out of prison and talked about having a purpose... well he didnt know his quite yet, and now that this has happened, he believes that he supposed to help him and he knows it was him that cured his liver! He knows he has to keep this from Lex because of how power hungry he has become and because of what happened in "Onyx" he knows he went too far with his son and its too late, so he has to help Clark... ok, my thinking is that... its Jor-El, but he let Lionel run the show most the time and only steps in when he feels he should... but yeah, this ending had me thinking... F#&! dude, he said Kal-El!! he F*^$*!% knows!

Clark_J_Kent

02-18-2006, 09:02 AM

For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Clark saved the life of someone he loved so someone he loved died.

But if Jor-El is still in possession of Lionel why would he blackmail Martha and take back Luthor Corps? It doesn't maek any sense.

myankskent

02-18-2006, 03:43 PM

Originally posted by Clark_J_Kent
For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Clark saved the life of someone he loved so someone he loved died.

But if Jor-El is still in possession of Lionel why would he blackmail Martha and take back Luthor Corps? It doesn't maek any sense.

I don't think anyone can assume that Lionel is 100 percent behind Clark. Maybe he is looking out for him, but if he is, it is JorEl controlling Lionel rather than Lionel making all of these decisions. Lionel is as corrupt as Lex. There is no way that he would change his ways without the influence of someone else, like JorEl.

norman619

02-18-2006, 05:26 PM

Originally posted by myankskent
I don't think anyone can assume that Lionel is 100 percent behind Clark. Maybe he is looking out for him, but if he is, it is JorEl controlling Lionel rather than Lionel making all of these decisions. Lionel is as corrupt as Lex. There is no way that he would change his ways without the influence of someone else, like JorEl.

How do you know this? He hasn't shown any signs of going back to his old selfserving manipulative ways since his body swap with Clark. He's done nothing but help/protect Clark since then.

MyOwnSuperhero

02-18-2006, 05:46 PM

Originally posted by myankskent
Lionel is as corrupt as Lex. There is no way that he would change his ways without the influence of someone else, like JorEl. I think that we've all already seen that Lionel can change to be good. That was the point of Transference - it showed us Lionel at his most dispicable and bastardly, then shock ed us all by being 'born again' by the whole thing.

Maybe he's still good from that, maybe not - that's debatable. But, IMO, we've seen that even Lionel can be changed. The only question right now is just how permanent that change really was.

thedarknight

02-18-2006, 05:58 PM

Originally posted by norman619
How do you know this? He hasn't shown any signs of going back to his old selfserving manipulative ways since his body swap with Clark. He's done nothing but help/protect Clark since then.

How does protecting Clark make him not evil. He clearly knows alot about Clark, one of the most powerful beings. He may have an alterior motive, usually what the Luthors have. So far, its been almost impossible to tell what his true intentions are.

I mean he killed Griff, wanted to take Luthorcorp from Lex, may have killed Angel of Vengeance's mom. Not to mention he set up a con with Martha Kent. I don't know about you guys but this sounds alot like the old MB. But seeing as he's enriched wit Kryptonian knowledge he's even more cunning then ever. This may account for his attude change as well.

Protecting Clark's secret may be for his own benefit, not b/c he cares for Clark. Just because he protects one person and kills [insert many people] doesn't justify him as a good person. Clark is the real hero, who saves even those who seek to destroy him.

Also Onyx definately beat out the good Lionel. He said you cannot deny your nature. He was basically telling Lex that he's evil and nothing can stop it. If he were trully good, he would have never made such a bold statement to his own son.

myankskent

02-18-2006, 06:34 PM

Originally posted by thedarknight
How does protecting Clark make him not evil. He clearly knows alot about Clark, one of the most powerful beings. He may have an alterior motive, usually what the Luthors have. So far, its been almost impossible to tell what his true intentions are.

I mean he killed Griff, wanted to take Luthorcorp from Lex, may have killed Angel of Vengeance's mom. Not to mention he set up a con with Martha Kent. I don't know about you guys but this sounds alot like the old MB. But seeing as he's enriched wit Kryptonian knowledge he's even more cunning then ever. This may account for his attude change as well.

Protecting Clark's secret may be for his own benefit, not b/c he cares for Clark. Just because he protects one person and kills [insert many people] doesn't justify him as a good person. Clark is the real hero, who saves even those who seek to destroy him.

Also Onyx definately beat out the good Lionel. He said you cannot deny your nature. He was basically telling Lex that he's evil and nothing can stop it. If he were trully good, he would have never made such a bold statement to his own son.

This is an excellent post. I agree with everything that you say. I don't understand how everyone is making Lionel out to be the messiah now. Just because he hasn't confronted Clark about his secret doesn't mean that he won't later on. Remember back in season 2 and 3 when he snuck around behind everyone's back. As those season's unfolded, you, the audience, were slowly made aware of all of the things that Lionel was responsible for. It's possible that instead of revealing all of Lionel's evil cards right now, we will see them later on. Great point about transference and what Lionel told Lex. Remember, he closed down the charities that he was working with which I think is very significant. If he was "blessed" by the gift he was given, why close down the charities? Answer...he's still the same Lionel, just a lot wiser and sneakier.

Lois Sullivan

02-18-2006, 08:53 PM

Originally posted by thedarknight
Also Onyx definately beat out the good Lionel. He said you cannot deny your nature. He was basically telling Lex that he's evil and nothing can stop it. If he were trully good, he would have never made such a bold statement to his own son.

Unless he wasn't talking about himself. What if the bold statement wasn't referring to him but to Lex? Remember, up until Onyx, Lionel wanted to do two things. First and foremost was Lex. He told Clark that he'd been changed, that something was inside of him that changed him and made him recognize the darkness in him and the destructive power behind it. He said that he recognized it in Lex now, and had to help him. Then between Bound and Onyx Lionel tried to help Lex. He kept telling Lex how his obsessions were only leading him down the path of darkness and it wasn't too late to get off that path. That he could change. Then EvilLex fought him in Onyx.

Many people have interpeted Lionel shutting down the foundation, and telling Lex that a man can't deny his true nature, as a return of the MB. But what if it wasn't. Notice what he said in that episode. That what Lex had done had given him "a wake up call. And I thank you for that" He told Lex that Lex had "certainly proved yourself to be the son i always wanted." Then he told Lex he was shutting down the foundation. That "it was a foolish dream. I'm awake now son." and "A man can't deny his true nature. Can he son?"

I think when EvilLex fought Lionel, Lionel realized for the first time that Lex had traveled to far down the path of darkness. That nothing Lionel could do could save his son now. That Lex would never be able to change and turn his back on his evil nature. I think Lionel realized he created something in Lex that was far darker than Lionel's darkside. At that point LIonel shut down the foundation, and turned to stopping Lex from gaining power. The quest for the stones. The election. Trying to get LuthorCorp away from Lex. That is his new destiny, his purpose. He didn't revert to his old ways. he realized that Lex would never deny his nature, and that the only thing he could do for him now was stop his quest for power. That the destructive darkness would always be inside of him, and that it was up to Lionel, who created that darkness, to make sure Lex never aqquired the power to use it. That's what I think Onyx meant.

ClLaLeChFAN01

02-18-2006, 08:59 PM

First I thought the Lionel character would be on just a season or two. But then you really saw Lionel's true colors, that is what made the show even more compelling. To see what he is up to next, what are his plans, intentions, motive. Honestly, I think that Lionel is one of the smarter characters on the show, meaning how they wrote him.

happycamper

02-18-2006, 11:14 PM

Could it just be that Lionel - who gained the knowledge of Kal-El becasue of his past "association" with Jor-El - simply cares for Martha, and would do almost anything to help her?

In the barn scene with Jonathan, he simply talked about a partnership in protecting their mutual secret - Clark, of course - than was taken badly by Jonathan. In retrospect, I don't think he meant for anything bad to happen.

I admit I thought he was manipulating Martha as this episode progressed, but the last line made me re-think what happened over the last few episodes...

jdot

02-19-2006, 06:12 AM

I keep reading people say that Jor-El sent Clark to Earth to conquer and rule and that he said these things and blah blah blah...

Jor-El never said any of those things. Clark read the words in the spaceship, but there is a lot of evidence now pointing to that evidence possibly being tainted.

Jor-El always said he wanted Clark to fulfil his destiny, but he never put into words what that destiny was. Clark assumed that he was sent to conquer, and then Brainiac (who, remember, is a VILLAIN) confirmed it.

While I do agree they have made Jor-El much colder than he was in any version of the comics, and they are writing him as an obstacle for Clark, he is not a true Villain in that sense. He didn't send his son to conquer, but to protect. And he will do anything in his power to see that his son fulfils that destiny.

I think that nobody gives the characters on this show enough credit for their powers of observation or their intelligence. Everyone in the opening credits has a clue about Clark (okay, maybe not Lois, but she's new), but they just don't have all the pieces. Lionel had a clue back in season 2 with the caves. Lex got a clue the first time he met Clark. Chloe was willfully oblivious until Alicia forced her to see and even then she chose to ignore all the obvious signs that pointed to the fact that Clark wasn't your garden variety meteor freak. Lana has had a clue since Tempest. Lex, Lionel, and Lana keep dropping clues at Clark that they know something, but Lionel was the first to get all the pieces, and that was due to the Transference and then the stone activating on him. I think Lex is the next closest to knowing the truth. After Reckoning, Clark isn't going to tell Lana until she rips it out of him.

tec611

02-19-2006, 11:08 AM

Originally posted by thedarknight
Also Onyx definately beat out the good Lionel. He said you cannot deny your nature. He was basically telling Lex that he's evil and nothing can stop it. If he were trully good, he would have never made such a bold statement to his own son.

'its not an insult to say a dead man, is dead' likewise it is not to say an evil man...is evil. If my son was Lex Luthor, heck I wouldnt have a problem saying 'i screwed up...your ****** crazy'. Lionel put it in a very fatherly way, especially after seeing this other half of your son who did these horrible things...its OBVIOUS that Lex has that in him. What? Is lionel supposed to sit there and be like 'ya...um, we...all have that in us...somewhere...to a degree...your fine, totally normal...good, person er....ya. love ya!'

Even though there are so many theories that could explain what is going on (and a handfull that absolutley COULD NOT), I think its going to be that Clark seems to be all-powerful, unstoppable, moral, trust-worthy, strong, obediant, and *insert crazy alien power here*. He has all the abilities that would allow him to take over the world, be a giant among men, etc. All the things he wanted LEX to be, but never could. He is grooming Clark to become a foster son, take on Lex's responsibilities and carry on a good powerful name for Lionel. This is why he would die to protect Clark now, because he views him as a son or wants too. He has sincere affection for Martha obviously as well...he wants to protect what he wants and views as 'his family' now. This obviously isnt whats happening, but its what Lionel WANTS to happen.

This doesnt mean that Lionel doesnt do devious things anymore, or that he hasnt or wont do still some messed up stuff; but when it comes to protecting the Kents, IMO he has sincere and genuine motives. Even Lionel (especially with all thats happened in Transference, Arrival, Hidden, etc..) can have sincere motives depending on the case.

xrayvision

02-19-2006, 11:28 AM

Originally posted by Lois Sullivan
Unless he wasn't talking about himself. What if the bold statement wasn't referring to him but to Lex? Remember, up until Onyx, Lionel wanted to do two things. First and foremost was Lex. He told Clark that he'd been changed, that something was inside of him that changed him and made him recognize the darkness in him and the destructive power behind it. He said that he recognized it in Lex now, and had to help him. Then between Bound and Onyx Lionel tried to help Lex. He kept telling Lex how his obsessions were only leading him down the path of darkness and it wasn't too late to get off that path. That he could change. Then EvilLex fought him in Onyx.

Many people have interpeted Lionel shutting down the foundation, and telling Lex that a man can't deny his true nature, as a return of the MB. But what if it wasn't. Notice what he said in that episode. That what Lex had done had given him "a wake up call. And I thank you for that" He told Lex that Lex had "certainly proved yourself to be the son i always wanted." Then he told Lex he was shutting down the foundation. That "it was a foolish dream. I'm awake now son." and "A man can't deny his true nature. Can he son?"

I think when EvilLex fought Lionel, Lionel realized for the first time that Lex had traveled to far down the path of darkness. That nothing Lionel could do could save his son now. That Lex would never be able to change and turn his back on his evil nature. I think Lionel realized he created something in Lex that was far darker than Lionel's darkside. At that point LIonel shut down the foundation, and turned to stopping Lex from gaining power. The quest for the stones. The election. Trying to get LuthorCorp away from Lex. That is his new destiny, his purpose. He didn't revert to his old ways. he realized that Lex would never deny his nature, and that the only thing he could do for him now was stop his quest for power. That the destructive darkness would always be inside of him, and that it was up to Lionel, who created that darkness, to make sure Lex never aqquired the power to use it. That's what I think Onyx meant.

Excellent post. I think you're very right. I think he's using his old MO to stop Lex from getting too much power and that he is really changed. I think him having the knowledge of Clark and all that he knows of Krypton put everything in perspective for him and that the old MB business as usual didn't matter anymore. He now has something much more valuable (just like he told Lex about the stones not satisfying Lex's thirst for power). I think he wants to be friends with Clark and have him like the family he never had (like the old Lex did). This is also what happened with Chloe. She used to want Clark as a bf but since learning his secret and becoming a close confidant, she is happy with just that.

One more reason that makes me think Lionel is good is that he will eventually have to die before the series ends. Out of everyone there is on the show, who do you think will kill him? I doubt it will be Clark, Chloe, Lana, Martha, or Lois. I think in typical Luthor tradition, it will be Lex killing or being responsible for Lionel's death. And I don't think they will both be evil MB's when it happens. Lionel truly as an MB wouldn't be an obstacle to Lex, they would be on the same side, so there would be no need for Lex to kill him. But Lionel as an opposing force would be an obstacle.

This is what makes me think that my 2nd theory in the following post won't happen (as cool as it sounds):

http://www.kryptonsite.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=1886692#post1886692

Originally posted by jdot
I think that nobody gives the characters on this show enough credit for their powers of observation or their intelligence. Everyone in the opening credits has a clue about Clark (okay, maybe not Lois, but she's new), but they just don't have all the pieces. Lionel had a clue back in season 2 with the caves. Lex got a clue the first time he met Clark. Chloe was willfully oblivious until Alicia forced her to see and even then she chose to ignore all the obvious signs that pointed to the fact that Clark wasn't your garden variety meteor freak. Lana has had a clue since Tempest. Lex, Lionel, and Lana keep dropping clues at Clark that they know something, but Lionel was the first to get all the pieces, and that was due to the Transference and then the stone activating on him. I think Lex is the next closest to knowing the truth. After Reckoning, Clark isn't going to tell Lana until she rips it out of him.

Well, Lex had actually figured it out before Lionel but had his memories erased in Asylum. But you could see that when Lionel watched the tape of Lex telling Clark "I know your secret" he was obsessively rewinding it and eventually did a continuous loop of it just to find/hear any other info that would let him put the pieces together. But you're right that they all at one time or another have suspected that Clark is not your normal man. I think the only reason Lana hasn't completely realized by now is all the conflicting things that happened. Every time she thought he was invulnerable, something happened where he lost his powers that made him seem normal. But after being resurrected, I don't think she can honestly believe he's normal anymore.

tec611

02-19-2006, 11:33 AM

Originally posted by xrayvision
Well, Lex had actually figured it out before Lionel but had his memories erased in Asylum. But you could see that when Lionel watched the tape of Lex telling Clark "I know your secret" he was obsessively rewinding it and eventually did a continuous loop of it just to find/hear any other info that would let him put the pieces together. But you're right that they all at one time or another have suspected that Clark is not your normal man. I think the only reason Lana hasn't completely realized by now is all the conflicting things that happened. Every time she thought he was invulnerable, something happened where he lost his powers that made him seem normal. But after being resurrected, I don't think she can honestly believe he's normal anymore.

Lex didnt really 'figure it out'. He saw Clark ram into a car going full speed, crush it and run off at superspeed. Aint much left to the imagination there. and it CERTAINLY didnt scream out the name 'Kal-El' to Lex. Lex only knew Clark had powers, but he didnt 'figure' anything else out. Lionel might have seen Clark save Lana...but the name Kal-El is a total mystery as of now how he knows that, Lionel is the ONLY ONE who has 'figured it out' on his own.

xrayvision

02-19-2006, 11:52 AM

Originally posted by tec611
Lex didnt really 'figure it out'. He saw Clark ram into a car going full speed, crush it and run off at superspeed. Aint much left to the imagination there. and it CERTAINLY didnt scream out the name 'Kal-El' to Lex. Lex only knew Clark had powers, but he didnt 'figure' anything else out. Lionel might have seen Clark save Lana...but the name Kal-El is a total mystery as of now how he knows that, Lionel is the ONLY ONE who has 'figured it out' on his own.

What about Dr. Swann? Clark wouldn't have known his birth name was Kal-El when he did if Swann hadn't told him. It seems like Swann had all the pieces put together as soon as he met Clark after the Kryptonian symbol was burnt into the barn. And he figured almost all of it out before even meeting Clark.

tec611

02-19-2006, 12:04 PM

Originally posted by xrayvision
What about Dr. Swann? Clark wouldn't have known his birth name was Kal-El when he did if Swann hadn't told him. It seems like Swann had all the pieces put together as soon as he met Clark after the Kryptonian symbol was burnt into the barn. And he figured almost all of it out before even meeting Clark.

you answered your own question. Swann didnt figure anything else out because he didnt even KNOW Clark. He spent years and years and billions of dollars researching Krypton on his own and looked for Clark then when he met him he was like 'so your Kal-El'. Swann already had all the knowledge he was just waiting to meet Clark. Your first post alluded greatly that people who KNEW CLARK 'figured it out' or tried to by putting two and two together by all his excuses, miraculous recovery and recovery, saving E.V.E.R.Y.O.N.E. from certain death on a daily basis, meteor shower, etc. etc....

Swann is a totally different situation

Vor-el

02-19-2006, 03:12 PM

that was a powerful ending, it was awsome!!

myankskent

02-19-2006, 11:40 PM

Originally posted by norman619
How do you know this? He hasn't shown any signs of going back to his old selfserving manipulative ways since his body swap with Clark. He's done nothing but help/protect Clark since then.

You cannot prove that he is helping Clark. Let me just say this, if you think that Lionel is helping Clark right now then what you are seeing in Lionel is JorEl. I don't see how you can think any different. Onyx beat the good right out of Lionel. Then Lionel decided to go after the stones again. If he was trying to keep them safe for Clark, then JorEl was using his body as a way to make sure that everything turned out the way that he wanted. If you don't believe that JorEl is controlling lionel then Lionel is up to his usual tricks and his endgame hasn't been revealed to us yet, plain and simple. Those are the two sides, decide which one you want to be on. If you don't agree with the sides, then tell me what sides that you think there are.

Watching Smallville

02-20-2006, 12:08 AM

Originally posted by myankskent
Onyx beat the good right out of Lionel.
It's not that easy to go from good to bad, or from bad to good. Transferrence changed Lionel because he had Clark's good energy in his body, and it cleaned him out. It cleaned out his disease and apparently cleaned out his soul, too.

In Onyx, what got beaten out of Lionel was the belief that Lex could get back onto a good track, or that Lionel could influence Lex by being a role model doing good deeds. Lionel suddenly saw that Lex had traveled far down a bad road, and that the only way to deal with him was to keep him in check by using the old methods that Lex respected.

But Lionel does seem to have a lot of information without any explanation. He knows about Brainiac. He knows the name Kal-El. He knew how to find the blackmailer, and he knew about Griff. I'm looking forward to an explanation. :)

ClLaLeChFAN01

02-20-2006, 06:47 AM

Me too! But there are no new Smallvilles until the end of March. :(

jaime,oburg

02-20-2006, 04:34 PM

I'm not buying for one second that Lionel has become a good guy. We saw his motivation and manipulation in Cyborg. Whatever "cleansing" that was done to Lionel surely can not make this leopard change his spots. After all, he is a Luthor...;)

Originally posted by Watching Smallville

But Lionel does seem to have a lot of information without any explanation. He knows about Brainiac. He knows the name Kal-El. He knew how to find the blackmailer, and he knew about Griff. I'm looking forward to an explanation. :)

Yes I too hope that tptb will tie these loose strings up nicely. Hopefully continuity will continue to improve with a clearer explaination as to what happened to him and what is really going on inside Lionel.

xrayvision

02-20-2006, 05:23 PM

Originally posted by tec611
Swann is a totally different situation

I can understand that. Swann was the only one who was solving the mystery of Kal-El in reverse. He didn't know Clark or anything about him like all the others did. He knew about an alien named Kal-El and was searching to find out if he ever made the journey as the message he intercepted stated. Still, he was more keen than any of the characters in the opening credits since his mission was to look for alien life. All others became interested after they noticed the mystery surrounding him and the effects the meteors had on the Smallville population and the effect he had on their lives. Swann didn't need any of these things to make him interested in finding out who Kal-El was.

Given all the circumstances, Lionel is definitely the smartest character on the show.

Watching Smallville

02-20-2006, 08:55 PM

Originally posted by jaime,oburg
I'm not buying for one second that Lionel has become a good guy.
:D

"Your secret is safe with me, Kal-El." Doesn't that statement suggest a good Lionel? ;)

SupermN

02-20-2006, 09:21 PM

Lionel used tha information against Johnathan to cause that fight that killed him. so i just think he knows and is going to manipulate martha with it. he'll keep the secret as long as shes his"friend!"...

Smallville Dominator

02-20-2006, 09:40 PM

Its amazing what Lionel is doing now. I don't know if he is going to be good or blackmail Clark into doing things for him. When I saw Cyborg I flipped, I had no idea that something like this would happen. I always thought that he knew but not that he remembered. But now that he does know it won't be long till he gets with Martha or starts living in the ice palace.

myankskent

02-20-2006, 11:17 PM

You have to remember one thing....a smart villain doesn't necessarily take immediate action when they have the power or evidence to destroy someone. It's a chess game which is what I think Lionel is playing if he's not JorEl. He's going to toy with Martha just has he was going to do with jonathan. He won't go straight to Clark and he would be foolish to do so because you never know if Clark will kill him. If he can get a strangle hold on martha and maybe even Chloe, that could give him an advantage later on if he were to confront Clark.

Garthog

02-21-2006, 10:24 AM

Pure speculation in my part of course; but it seems to me that after Lionel got Jor-Elified he remembered, if not everything, a lot. And the things he 'remembers' were all Jor-El's memories.

And it comes back to Zod. Ever since Jor-El first spoke to Clark there has been an urgency about it. The Jor-El AI (And that's what it is, an AI) has been tasked with one thing; prepare Kal-El for the coming of Zod. We know from Braniac the sort of attrocities Zod commited (Which Fine actually attributed to Jor-El) and it's safe to assume that this knowledge passed on to Lionel aswell.

He knows Zod's agents are trying to free him and he knows how big a threat the General is to the world (Even when near catatonic after the 2nd meteor shower, Lionel warned Lana about 'The Disciples of Zod' and even how to stop them; or slow 'em down anyway). Lionel's far from stupid; and he knows that Clark 'Kal-El' Kent is by far the best chance they have should the worst come to the worst and Zod gets lose on Earth; it's in his own interests to protect Clark.

However Lionel is still Lionel. He's a total bastard of Machiavellian proportions. He'll happilly cheat, steal and kill to keep Clark 'safe' and he certainly has no qualms about going after all the things he wants too (Such as Martha).

I think he probably sees Jonathan's death as a happy accident. It wasn't intended, he was no doubt being quite sincere when he said he wanted to be partners (And even as a 'partner' he would still have no small amount of influence over a state senator). But Jonathan's untimely death meant he could now make a move for Martha (Who he's clearly been ogling ever since she worked for him).

So in a nutshell; Lionel is still a total, grade-A scumbag. Just that in the longrun he knows all too well that it is in his best interests that Clark's secret remains secret until he is properly prepared for the coming of Zod. Ma Luther didn't raise no fool after all.

jaime,oburg

02-21-2006, 10:28 AM

Originally posted by Watching Smallville
:D

"Your secret is safe with me, Kal-El." Doesn't that statement suggest a good Lionel? ;)

I think back to when Lionel ( in Clark's body in Transference), tells him, ...I know why you are so secretive. You understand that true power is best left concealed. Or something to that effect. Luthors like power and knowledge. They don't like to share either. So Lionel knowing about Clark and being one of a few in on the secret, puts him at an advantage that others don't have.
I think he will play that card when he feels the time is best. Lionel is just manipulating the situation to better his position. He has an angle and is working it. Lionel's intentions have always been purely selfish even though he always manages to convince people otherwise. He wants to gain both Clark and Martha's trust. This will lead them to believe he has their best interest in mind. Lionel has always had his best interest in mind and has been very tricky at always gaining the upper hand. He's probally doing it again IMHO.

myankskent

02-21-2006, 02:06 PM

Originally posted by jaime,oburg
I think back to when Lionel ( in Clark's body in Transference), tells him, ...I know why you are so secretive. You understand that true power is best left concealed. Or something to that effect. Luthors like power and knowledge. They don't like to share either. So Lionel knowing about Clark and being one of a few in on the secret, puts him at an advantage that others don't have.
I think he will play that card when he feels the time is best. Lionel is just manipulating the situation to better his position. He has an angle and is working it. Lionel's intentions have always been purely selfish even though he always manages to convince people otherwise. He wants to gain both Clark and Martha's trust. This will lead them to believe he has their best interest in mind. Lionel has always had his best interest in mind and has been very tricky at always gaining the upper hand. He's probally doing it again IMHO.

I agree. If there is no JorEl influencing Lionel and he is just been given the information about Clark when JorEl took over his body, he wouldn't go after Clark right away. He knows that Clark could take him out with one swing if he wanted to. The only way to try to defeat Clark, if you don't have powers yourself, is to move in on the people he loves and gain some leverage on them. Then, when Lionel is in a position to blackmail clark, Clark won't be able to kill him or else the people he loves will be destroyed.

Watching Smallville

02-21-2006, 03:23 PM

Originally posted by myankskent
I agree. If there is no JorEl influencing Lionel and he is just been given the information about Clark when JorEl took over his body, he wouldn't go after Clark right away. He knows that Clark could take him out with one swing if he wanted to. The only way to try to defeat Clark, if you don't have powers yourself, is to move in on the people he loves and gain some leverage on them. Then, when Lionel is in a position to blackmail clark, Clark won't be able to kill him or else the people he loves will be destroyed.
Ever since Jor-El inhabited Lionel, Lionel's been acting weird, having knowledge from who knows where. If having Clark's "essence" inside him was enough to turn him good, wouldn't having Jor-El's spirit inhabiting his body have a similar effect? I think he's being very purposeful in protecting Clark this season. I see the blackmail as protecting, but I can see how it could be seen differently. But, remember he warned Chloe about Brainiac. Why would he do that if he were "evil Lionel"? ;)

MyOwnSuperhero

02-21-2006, 04:59 PM

Evil Lionel? Good Lionel? Lion-El? I think it's premature for anyone to say one way or another. Right now, all we really know is that Lionel appears to have a full knowledge of Clark's secret, and seems to be protecting that secret. We don't know how he knows it, or how long he's known, or what his motives are. Even with all of the recent revelations, Lionel's still a giant question mark.

Drakaun

02-21-2006, 05:01 PM

I can't get a clear picture about what Lionel is plotting, and I like it that way, just when you think you figured it all out, BAM, something new and exciting pops out and you're like, WTF mate?

But personally after reviewing all of season 4 and the beginning episodes of season 5 it is still a freaking mystery, but it seems Lionel has been protecting Clark but in the way only lionel knows. He is blackmailing, paying off, and killing people, he is showing signs similar to that of Jor-El in a sense, Jor-El could care less about humans, he doesn't understand humanity, he is an alien after all, who knows how kryptonians really think because our only true example of a kryptonian has been Clark, who was raised by humans and thus has humanity inside of him, and the corrupt kryptonians like the disciples of Zod, and then there is the AI created by kryptonians, but that is a whole nother ball park.

Then there is Jor-El, no one really knows what Jor-El is, if he died how is he still able to do the things he does, or is kryptonian technology so advanced he was able to download an AI with his own persona. I mean look at Brainiac, he was created by kryptonians but he still had these powers on earth like Clark, but also that liquid metal thing going for him. What if there is a Jor-El AI and that is what has been communicating with Clark all this time we have been watching. Perhaps the AI knows how to manipulate the kryptonite like Braniac was able to do and thus it explains how he does the things he does. Plus I don't really know what kind of power lies in those crystals in the fortress either.

I know I am rambling and I haven't even really stated what I think about the lionel situation, but as far as I can tell, since Transference Lionel has been protecting clark in his own Lionel way, he is a twisted person so I would think he has a twisted way of getting things done. He shot Jason before he could spill the beans about Clark, he cleaned up Lana's little murder scene so the fact that Lana was facing a murder charge wouldn't upset Clark in some way, as brainiac said, "if you hurt Lana it will destroy you." same goes for if he knew lana would be taken away forever or even executed for murder. He is trying to instill martha's trust so she can in turn get clark to trust him. Perhaps he originally was going to do this with Johnathan, but Johnathan jumping to conclusions knowing what luthor was capable of ended up dying. Don't get me wrong, I miss JK lots but that is how I view things.

The other way you can view it is Jor-El has some kind of power over lionel similar to that of the supergirl in the season 3 finale. Sure that would only explain lionel's actions after the stone zapped him, but what about all he did before then, like gathering the stones and shooting Jason and such. But notice that the stone that zapped him was the very stone he used in Transference, perhaps Lionel entrapped himself by reading into the stone's power, thinking he could escape in lex's body, but in some weird way I feel that it wouldn't work on a human, but we'll never know that will we. I think switching with Clark was the master plan all along on Jor-El's part, think about it, the stone rang when Lionel was about to use it yet not before that, and not after that until the other stones were put together. Perhaps that is actually when the transfer of knowledge began, and he got the rest later when the stones were activated. I don't believe one second of the whole, Clark's goodness cleansed his soul, look at the spaceship, it made Martha able to have a baby, and it saved her from that disease from the kryptonite dust, kryptonian technology has great healing powers. It is a big mess of confusion and I hope it is not because of faulty writing but because there is a grand master plan to drop our jaws yet again. That's just my two cents.

shirkie

02-21-2006, 08:52 PM

Best. Ending. Ever.
shirkie

opera_ghost

02-21-2006, 09:57 PM

Originally posted by myankskent
This is an excellent post. I agree with everything that you say. I don't understand how everyone is making Lionel out to be the messiah now. Just because he hasn't confronted Clark about his secret doesn't mean that he won't later on. Remember back in season 2 and 3 when he snuck around behind everyone's back. As those season's unfolded, you, the audience, were slowly made aware of all of the things that Lionel was responsible for. It's possible that instead of revealing all of Lionel's evil cards right now, we will see them later on. Great point about transference and what Lionel told Lex. Remember, he closed down the charities that he was working with which I think is very significant. If he was "blessed" by the gift he was given, why close down the charities? Answer...he's still the same Lionel, just a lot wiser and sneakier.

I don't think Lionel is the messiah.... I don't think that anyone else views him that way either... No one felt Jor-El as he's been interpretted as the 'messiah' either. The problem is... what are his motivations.

and in terms of being away from Jor-El's influence and him changing back... remember, all of that took place LAST SEASON before Jor-El decided to make him an Oracle... I'm not certain about the LurthorCorp thing either... it's a confusing situation.. but to automatically dismiss him as purely good or evil.. does a major disservice to the history as told to this point.

Jor-El himself flirts with the line we'd, and clark would, define as evil. But... base that speculation of the facts... he took the stone from Mrs. Teague to get it away from her... and possibly from Lex.... it's not certain if he wanted it for himself or not. (my money would be on that he DID want it for himself.. but it's not certain.) Under that same vein of thought.. he told them that he'd given his stone to Lana when he hadn't.. to give them time to escape.

And as the marathon monday reminded me... he shot jason right before Jason said something about clark.. (probably his lack of a birth record) and Lionel shot him.

I'm honest in that I am not sure what his motives are... but the fact that he said that line at the very end makes me lean towards the Jor-El being the dominant one.... and yet, in hinding. He didn't say it in earshot of anyone.. so it wasn't a lie to make himself look better.. and Lionel doesn't strike me as the type to lie to himself to bolster any sort of dillusion. (Others yes, but not himself.)

But, that is the big question at the break.... is lionel genuinely changed.. is Jor-El exerting influence over him... what's his agenda.. and how much is he lying?

Conner

02-21-2006, 10:41 PM

I guess we'll all just have to wait and see...

finchy4

02-22-2006, 08:18 AM

i never thought jor-el was still in lionel. i instantly went back to the last episode with dr. swann. i think they needed to tie up loose ends with that story and i think we're going to find out what lionel got out of whatever deal they made.

supes53172

02-22-2006, 09:01 AM

From previous episodes when Lionel was strucken down by one of the three stones, he was possessed with something similar to the Eradicator from the comics...but that is just speculation on my end.

Watching Smallville

02-22-2006, 09:43 AM

optinox

02-22-2006, 11:35 AM

Ok,

First of all, everyone has to remember Lional has been trying to investigate Clark Kent for along time now, at least from Season 2 and on...he's been doing it behind Lex's back, and any info Lex has that Lionel suspects has to do with Clark he find that information out or steals it somehow from his son.

When Jor-el inhabited Lionels body, I believe some of the kryptonian knowledge was left behind, I also believe that deep inside he has changed. Even though he can still seem like the old Lionel, I think he realizes Clarks destiny and knows that Clarks secret needs to be kept just that, a secret.

Lionel had nothing to do/and Jor-el had nothing to do with Johnothan Kent dying...Jor-el said that when he gave Clark back his life force and brought back to life, it caused an inbalance in the universe, Johnathon Kent already had heart problems and it was a matter of time that he was going to have a heart attack/die...I think the life force taken to give Clark his life back, in a sense skipped Clark and when on to th next person in line which was John Kent. Jor-el isn't responcible for Johnathon Kent's death, it was out of his hands, all he said was that someone close to Clark would die, he didn't know who it was going to be.

Also your all forgetting that Lionel has heard the name Kal-el before, when the 2 kryptonians came to earth they mentioned the name Kal-el....Lionel has always supsected Clark having powers, and at the end of Cyborg I think he pretty much knew after watching the DVD of Clark saving Lana in the warehouse that exploded, that he was Kal-el. I mean think about it, "Vengeance" when he saved Lional, Clark didn't try to hide or make up an excuse on how he saved Lionel from falling out the window, and Lionel didn't even question him or was surprised like any normal person would...he just brushed it off like nothing happened, so either he's 100% sure that Clark Kent is Kal-el or he has split personalities of Jor-el/Lionel Luthor....but with the fight with Johnathon and showing him a pic which to me looked like a ship, and him watching the dvd of Clark saving Lana, and alot of other small things that Lionel has questioned or made him question who is Clark Kent, I think at this point it's safe to say that Lionel knows, and doesn't want Lex to know or find out, which is maybe why he had the DVD so that Lex couldn't get his hands on it. Plus he did say to Johnathon Kent that "it's a secret we'd both protect our lives over"...I think he has good intentions, I think alot of that has to do with Jor-el inhabiting his body, the kryptonian knowledge that may be left inside of him, and also when he changed and seemd to be good, I think all of these things triggered him to want to truly help...BUT then again what if it Lionel is inhabited by Brainiac wouldn't that be interesting if it was revealed in the last episode in the 5th season, you never know.

Watching Smallville

02-22-2006, 12:13 PM

Originally posted by optinox
Also your all forgetting that Lionel has heard the name Kal-el before, when the 2 kryptonians came to earth they mentioned the name Kal-el

Other people have said this, but Lionel wasn't around when the Kryptonians used this name. Lex, Lana, Lois -- yes, but not Lionel. He was in that delusional fog, and he stayed in that fog until he rescued Clark in Hidden. Remember he was carving in the floor and saying "Their home is their only poison." So perhaps someone told him the name Kal-El, but he never heard it from the Kryptonian directly.

He's getting information from somewhere -- I haven't a clue where. :cool:

crzyeyez1345

02-22-2006, 03:57 PM

Lex told him at the end of Hidden, he told Lionel that he was rambling on about Krypton and Kal-EL

Watching Smallville

02-22-2006, 05:54 PM

Thanks -- I watched the ending and you're right. I hadn't noticed that. Okay -- now I'm not as surprised by what Lionel said. :)

stuckinasquare3

02-22-2006, 06:49 PM

if lionel was jur el or vice versa i dont think he wud have said "Your secret's safe with me" because that wouldn't make sense.

jaime,oburg

02-22-2006, 07:26 PM

Originally posted by finchy4
i never thought jor-el was still in lionel. i instantly went back to the last episode with dr. swann. i think they needed to tie up loose ends with that story and i think we're going to find out what lionel got out of whatever deal they made.

Clark thought that Dr. Swann may have betrayed him when he found out that he met with Lionel. Dr. Swann makes it clear to Clark that he did meet with Lionel but it was "in your (Clark's) best interests". I don't see how giving Lionel Luthor any information on Clark would be acting on his best interest.
Brigette Crosby also tells Martha that Dr. Swann made a promise to Clark that his secret would not leave the foundation and it hasn't.
I don't think that Lionel was given any information of any importance from Swann. Whatever Lionel got out of the "deal" Swann spoke of, it certainly wasn't anything that would not be in Clark's best interest. Lionel knowing about Clark would never be in Clark's best interest. Swann would surely know that!:eek:

stuckinasquare3

02-22-2006, 08:04 PM

i missed out on alot of the earlier episodes. I forgot what happened with Dr. Swann and Bridgette Crosby. I remember bridgette dying this season but i dont remember her prior connection. How did Dr. Swann know stuff about Clark again? anyone care to refresh me?

LuthorRequiem2

02-23-2006, 08:25 AM

He was a super brilliant scientist who was had I think a theory that a spaceship landed during the meteor shower. He believed their was life on other planets, and has been studying intensely on it. I think he saw some message that was left behind that day of the meteor shower and trying to read it and finally figured out. Then he heard that there was an adopted child in the Meteor land, Smallville, and thought that maybe, since he was not biologically the child of Jonathan and Martha Kent, that he could be the alien he's been searching for all this time.

jimmyolsenblues

02-23-2006, 08:58 AM

Christopher Reeve as Dr. Swann was possibly the best episode on Smallville. If you have not seen it, order it ASAP.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/SHOWBIZ/TV/02/24/apontv.smallville.ap/

otter

02-23-2006, 09:18 AM

Okay, I skipped pages 3-13, because I just wanted to point some things out. IF this is repeat, then forgive me.

Lionel was in the mansion when the kryptonians came looking for Kal-El (actually Lana led them there). Kal-El/Clark was in the mansion fighting the kryptonians, sending them back into space. He actually admitted to being Kal-El, out loud. What with all the surveillance in the mansion (and with all the surveillance in every other place in Smallville and Metropolis Lionel and Lex can get their hands on), there would be footage of Clark battling with the kryptonians, just like there was footage of Clark saving Lana in the warehouse. Lionel shows this information to Jonathan and Jonathan has a heart attack.

But the way Lionel has been acting, he definitely wants to partner up with Martha. He hired the goon to blackmail her, so that when he saved her from the whole affair, she would trust him. Aagh! Martha, run!

Sydafex7

02-23-2006, 03:15 PM

Originally posted by Lois Sullivan
Its neither silly. Lionel went to Jonathan with proof of Clark's powers. He even told Jonathan, "I don't want a puppet. I want a partner" and that the picture held a secret "we're both willing to give our lives to keep". I think Jonathan thought Lionel was trying to blackmail him, and was furiated that Lionel knew the truth. Hence the whole "I won't let you destroy my family" and hitting him. Lionel didn't go looking for a fight, he went looking to make amends and help Jonathan. Jonathan's heart attack is no one's fault but Jonathan's for overreacting.

I think the security guard came along to blackmail Martha, and Lionel payed him off. Maybe even killed him. Just like Lex's spy Griff. Lionel destroyed the evidence from Griff, and he got rid of Martha's blackmailer as well. He's trying to keep the secret from getting out.

Are we forgetting that Lionel was HEALED by Clark?? Do you think he just blew that off? No way. He told the doctor in transference he had changed and I beleive he really did. He likes Clark and he has been trying to keep his secret ever since, even though to us, it seems as if hes just being Lionel.

I agree with the above theory. I think Lionel has known a little bit about Clark ever since season 2 when he was "blind". I think he has learned a little bit more every episode/season.

In Transference, Clark remembered everything that he did while in Lionel's body. So of course Lionel remembers everything he did when he was in Clark's body. When he told the doctor he had no recollection of the last few days, he was talking about his body. He doesnt know what Clark did while he was in his body, just like Clark didnt know what Lionel did when he was in Clark's body.

Lionel knows all of Clarks abilities ever since Transference. Since then, he decided to get those stones because he knows they were meant for Clark. How? Easy. The symbols on the stones are the same ones in the cave. Lionel knows that Clark is more connected to those caves than anyone because off all the times they've met each other down there. Also, he knows Clark somehow reopened the sealed-over key hole in the cave and then Clark just dissapeared (legacy). He also knows that Clark has stolen the key from him before (insurgence).

remember how Lionel was all goody two shoes since Transference and then in Onyx he became the Magnificent bastard again? Well it was Lex's evil side that made him change back, right? He changed back so that Lex would think he was the same old bad guy again. In fact, ever since Transference he realizes the good that Clark does. I mean he HEALED Lionel. He saved him from dieses, wether or not he meant to or not. If kit wasnt for Clark, Lionel would be dead because of his liver.

The fact is Lionel wants Lex to think its all about him so that Lex doesnt get suspicios, where in reality, he's protecting the Kents. He didnt go there to Blackmail Jonathan, which is why he didnt fight back right away. In Legacy, JK hit him just as hard and Lionel didnt waste a seconds time hitting him right back. Lionel wanted a partnership but JK like the above post says, thought "Lionel.. BLACKMAIL!!!"

The reason Lionel wanted those stones was to help Clark. TPTB have been making us think he is back to evil Lionel, but in all reality he is good. Its a great twist.

GooN

02-23-2006, 03:23 PM

how about..apologising as i speak if its already been said....when lionel was clark, he filmed himself as clark and did all the special kinda **** that he does and then hid the tape incase he turns back into lionel which he did and then...yeah.

sdcheesehead

02-23-2006, 04:11 PM

This is just a thought I had last night, and it may be way out there in left field, but here goes...

What if Dr. Swann was actually a Kryptonian. We witnessed in "Relic" how Jor-El was sent to Earth, as some form of lesson from his father, and Clark mentioned it may have been some sort of "Right of Passage". Maybe, if Dr Swann was a Kryptonian, he was sent to Earth, but fell in love with Bridgett Crosby, and as a penalty, his father made him live as a mortal. Since his was mortal, he was able to be injuried, which would explain why he was in a wheelchair. Being raised in the advance Kryptonian environment, he would've been very bright, and during "Rosetta" it mentions that Swann had received some MIT degree at the age of 19, and moved into satelittes & communication, and finally his interests in other worlds. When Dr. Swann (in "Rosetta") is talking to Clark, he is feeding Clark with information about his hertiage & language, and allowing him to hear his birthname for the 1st time. He chalks it all up to what he has learn throughout the years (and some mathematical equation). Later, in "Legacy", we see Clark confronting Dr. Swann about Lionel. We know something was agree upon, but what we can just speculate, but Dr. Swann confronts Clark about his indiscretions (Metropolis & blowing up the ship). Dr. Swann continues to say that he thought Clark was ready to hear the information about his hertiage (the year prior), but maybe he was wrong. How much does Swann know, and where is he getting his information. Krypton blew up, so who is he communicating with? I'm under the understanding that Jor-El may be an AI, but where is the communication coming from. If Swann is Kryptonian, maybe he has taken it upon himself to guide Clark along his way to fulfill his destiny.

Why do I feel this way? Well, back again in "Relic" , it seems like the Caves were used as a portal between Krypton & Earth, and any Kryptonian coming into the caves may have been informed of the legend on the walls. This also makes me question, why send your child in a spacecraft, instead of using the portal, and saving yourself or at least your child. Anyways. When the meteor shower hit the Earth the first time, this probally peaked Swann's interest, but he wasn't sure until Chloe published the barn scorching picture in the paper. Which is when he contacted Clark. Also, at the end of "Legacy", we see Swann staring at a key. Who's to say that wasn't "his" key. In "Relic" Jor-El had his own key that he used to deposit his journal. The way Swann was staring at the key, was almost a look of longing. I feel, if this is true, the key that got "melted" into the wall is lost. Upon his death, the key was sent to Clark, because he is without his key anymore, and to be able to fulfill his destiny, he needed it.

Now, onto Bridgett Crosby. Who is she? In "Crusade" she comes to Martha's aid, on behalf of Dr. Swann, and presents her with black kryptonite. OK, where did Swann get black kryptonite and how did he know how it was going to affect Clark? She mentions that her and Dr. Swann may have had a relationship "in a different time", So when did this happen? Also, in "Blank", when Jason & Lex have discovered her body (I know Jason killed her), they both point to her association with Swann, but later in the episode, we learn there is no such person as Bridgett Crosby (according to the sheriff), so why is there no information on her. And finally, why was she traveling with the stone? Was she on her way to return it to Clark, or was she actually going to be meeting with Lex.

Finally, onto Lionel. It's possible that Lionel is just Lionel. Jor-El used his body as a vessel, during "Hidden", I understand this, but I think what we are seeing is Lionel. He has his own agenda, but going back to "Legacy" and his meeting with Swann. This is a very interesting conversation. Lionel knows Swann has the answers he desires. Lionel wants to know the secrets of the cave, and in getting the knowledge, he is hoping to cure his liver disease. What is it, that Swann wants? He said he was just wanted to know if he was right, but is there more to it. Maybe, he wants to make sure Clark stays on track, and persues his destiny (which I believe Swann knew). What kind of deal was made? When Lionel was leaving, Swann posed the Question "Even if you had the key, what do you think would happen if you placed the key in the lock". Lionel was willing to risk it, his life is on the line. Any human that has tried to use the key has been basically "shocked" for lack of a better word. This is purely speculation, but maybe Swann did give Lionel information, pertinent to unlocking "some" of the mysteries of the cave, including the name Kal-El (not Clark). In his (Swann) opinion, whatever information (deal) that was made was in Clark's best interest. How does Swann know this? again the possiblities that he's Kryptonian, and he is aware of the impeding danger (Zod). Why will Lionel keep Clark's secret? He has his own agenda, I'm certain of this, but maybe Swann made him a member of his foundation, which seems to be focusing on protecting Clark. Since Lionel was cured in "Transference", he really owes his life to Clark, and Clark gave him something his own son wouldn't give him, his life back. Lex was just going to leave his father in prison to die. So, after being released, he's going to be the MB we all love to watch, but he will always be in debt to Clark. Now, if he would just stop bugging Martha, I'd be happy.

I'm sure the TBTB wouldn't portray Swann (Christopher Reeve) in a bad light. He has almost been like a "Kryptonian" father, giving him information of his true origins and heritage, as well as construction crictism (the trip to Metropolis & ship), and how he should try to keep (protect) his secret as long as possibly from those around him. Lionel, if Swann leaked the name Kal-El, possibly added 2&2, and determined Kal-El and Clark are one in the same. Especially after seeing the proof in the video (photograph).

So there you go...Thank ~Cheesy~

Watching Smallville

02-23-2006, 04:39 PM

Originally posted by Sydafex7
In Transference, Clark remembered everything that he did while in Lionel's body. So of course Lionel remembers everything he did when he was in Clark's body.
Actually, Clark didn't remember anything. Remember when Lana told him not to say anything about Jason, he was surprised. If you go back and watch the end, you'll see it. So Lionel didn't remember. either.

But otherwise, I agree with your assessment. Lionel is playing the old Lionel so that he can pursue the goals of the new Lionel.

Smokethatkryptonite

02-23-2006, 08:46 PM

He's not Jor-el! Lionel's just awesome enough to learn everything! Why would he try to woo Martha? You could tell Lionel had a thing for her in season 2!

stuckinasquare3

02-23-2006, 09:18 PM

basically there are lots of different points in the series where if lionel had remembered something he would know about Clarks secret. How do we know he remembered something that he says he didn't. He's a luthor, he lies, he pretended to be blind remember?

amberdawn

02-23-2006, 09:21 PM

Ha, I totally forgot when Lionel pretended to be blind.

Watching Smallville

02-23-2006, 09:56 PM

Originally posted by stuckinasquare3
basically there are lots of different points in the series where if lionel had remembered something he would know about Clarks secret. How do we know he remembered something that he says he didn't. He's a luthor, he lies, he pretended to be blind remember?
What I said was that Clark didn't remember in Transference. So it's logical to assume that Lionel didn't remember, either.

jaime,oburg

02-24-2006, 12:15 PM

I don't think that Lionel remembers anything from the transference accept that somehow he was healed as he stated to the doc. He didn't learned about Kal-El then. Of course that could have been another lie.Perhaps he was "downloaded" with some Kryptonian knowledge in Arrival and has some recollection, the writers really didn't make that clear. In Onyx we are reminded that after all the "cleansing" in Transference he still is a Luthor. His actions are still ambigous just like the writers have always written everything. His motives have never changed. It's always about gaining the upper hand. Only one thing has always been clear to me. Lionel has never been the "good guy". Watch out Martha!

MyOwnSuperhero

02-24-2006, 04:33 PM

Watching Smallville

02-24-2006, 06:53 PM

Originally posted by MyOwnSuperhero
Uh, the reason Clark didn't know about Jason was because it was Lionel in Clark's body that found out. Clark was stuck in Lionel's body in prison at the time, which is why he didn't know about Jason.
I see what you mean -- He remembers what happened to him when he was in Lionel's body. Yes, that's certainly true. I must be posting when I'm sleepy! :rolleyes:

Sydafex7

02-25-2006, 03:31 AM

Originally posted by Watching Smallville
Actually, Clark didn't remember anything. Remember when Lana told him not to say anything about Jason, he was surprised. If you go back and watch the end, you'll see it. So Lionel didn't remember. either.

But otherwise, I agree with your assessment. Lionel is playing the old Lionel so that he can pursue the goals of the new Lionel.

No no no... Clark DOES remember everything he did while he was in Lionel's body.. He remembers everything that happened to him while he was in prison...

What he doesnt know is what all Lionel did while Lionel was in HIS body.. which is why he didnt know about Jason and Lana. (because that wasnt him.. that was Lionel in HIS body.

Clark remembers and knows and retained everything that happened to him while he as in Lionel's body. (he went to lex and asked for him to help him free Lionel's cellmate)
Since Clark remembers all that he did while in Lionel's body,
Lionel remembers all he did while he was in Clark's body.

What I was trying to say (it is confusing) is when Lionel told the doctor he "had no recollection of anything from the past few days" he really didnt.... He had no idea WHAT his body did the past few days and what his body had been through because he was busy being Clark in Clark's body. Just as Clark had no idea what HIS body had been up to because he was in prison.

Lionel DOES remember having all thr powers and being in Clark's body because Clark remembered everything he did while he was in Lionel's body.

Watching Smallville

02-26-2006, 08:05 PM

Yes, my foggy mind cleared up, and realized that it was absolutely right that Clark remembered everything that happened to him while he was Lionel.

It's interesting your take that Lionel meant he didn't remember what happened to "Lionel" over the time when he was Clark. I'm still not sure he remembers what happened while he was "Clark" -- just going by what he says at the end of the episode. He seems genuinely confused. But at this point, I'm willing to believe just about anything when it comes to Lionel.

Incus

02-26-2006, 09:51 PM

Lionel has been onto Clark since season 2...since his "blindness". He has always had suspisions about him, but he probably wasn't sure whether he was just a earthling affected by the meteor rocks, or whether he was actually from another planet. I agree that Lionel has known what Clark is capable of since Transference and just acted as if he had amnesia.

I do not think Jor-el is in Lionel's body or left any info behind when he was in Lionel's body as this would put Clark at risk.

Sydafex7

02-27-2006, 02:51 PM

Originally posted by Incus
Lionel has been onto Clark since season 2...since his "blindness". He has always had suspisions about him, but he probably wasn't sure whether he was just a earthling affected by the meteor rocks, or whether he was actually from another planet. I agree that Lionel has known what Clark is capable of since Transference and just acted as if he had amnesia.

I do not think Jor-el is in Lionel's body or left any info behind when he was in Lionel's body as this would put Clark at risk.

agreed. I think its Lionel, not Jor-el and I also think that Lionel truly wants to protect Clark and Martha's secret because he want's Lex to have someone who can challenge him when he needs to be.

I think this will ultimately get Lionel killed protecting the secret (probably by Lex) and drive Clark and Him even furthur apart to the point they are at when He's Superman.

Originally posted by Watching Smallville
Yes, my foggy mind cleared up, and realized that it was absolutely right that Clark remembered everything that happened to him while he was Lionel.

It's interesting your take that Lionel meant he didn't remember what happened to "Lionel" over the time when he was Clark. I'm still not sure he remembers what happened while he was "Clark" -- just going by what he says at the end of the episode. He seems genuinely confused. But at this point, I'm willing to believe just about anything when it comes to Lionel.

Well, I mean my take makes sense. His "body" was healed, but he hadn't been in his "body" so he had no idea how that happened, WHich is why he said to the Doctor "I have no recollection of the past few days"

Watching Smallville

02-27-2006, 03:47 PM

"I have no recollection of the past few days" means something different to me. It means he has no memory at all in his consciousness -- which would include what he did as Clark. So, for me it's still up in the air. :) But I think your take is interesting. And may very well be right.

Supercanuck

02-28-2006, 12:07 AM

I found that to be the best dramatic ending of Season 5 and they had some good ones. I will still keep the JK's good bye scene as the best emotional ending however :)

Sydafex7

02-28-2006, 07:48 AM

Originally posted by Supercanuck
I found that to be the best dramatic ending of Season 5 and they had some good ones. I will still keep the JK's good bye scene as the best emotional ending however :)

Yeah... me too. That ending is what saved Vengence (at least IMO) from being a so-so episode. Seeing Tom and Anette just balling into each other with JK paused on the T.V in the background sent chills up my spine.

I can't wait to see how this Lionel think plays out. I think it would be cool if he turns into a straight up good guy to the Kent's by protecting the secret for them but being the same old Lionel around Lex and others.

Supercanuck

02-28-2006, 09:58 PM

JG is indeed, in my opinion, the elder statesman of the series now. If it wasn't for him holding the fort now that JS is gone, the series would be in serious trouble.

I_am_kal-el_of_krypton

03-08-2006, 04:48 PM

my guess is that Jor-el had taken over Lionels body that night in the barn. Jor-el said that the universe would balance and that someone close to him would lose their life. I think Jor-el went to see him that night to basically anger jonathan into a heart attack. I mean, whatever was on that paper that lionel had must have been important. if lionel had known clarks secret all this time dont you think he'd have done something about it? and the last line in cyborg, 'Your secret is safe with me, Kal-el' that doesnt set things straight for you?

Sydafex7

03-09-2006, 02:43 PM

Originally posted by I_am_kal-el_of_krypton
my guess is that Jor-el had taken over Lionels body that night in the barn. Jor-el said that the universe would balance and that someone close to him would lose their life. I think Jor-el went to see him that night to basically anger jonathan into a heart attack. I mean, whatever was on that paper that lionel had must have been important. if lionel had known clarks secret all this time dont you think he'd have done something about it? and the last line in cyborg, 'Your secret is safe with me, Kal-el' that doesnt set things straight for you?

No not at all. Lionel has heard the word Kal-el plenty of times in the past. The lastest time was when Lex told him he was mumbling things like "kal-el" and "krypton".

Is everyone forgetting that Clark HEALED Lionel of Liver disease? I think that is the final event to make Lionel realize that Clark is important. I mean if it wasnt for Clark he'd be dead. I think he realizes this now. I think he was going after the crystals not for himself (at first yes, before Transference, cuz he was looking for a cure) but for Clark and to keep them away from the Teagues and Lex. Sure, he used Lana to get one, but he knew that was Lex's weakness.

Yes, Jor-el told him nature finds a balance.. IF what you think is indeed right, what's so "natural" about Jor-el scaring JK into having a heart attack? If TPTB meant for that to be Jor-el in Lionel that night in the barn, then it would be very very clear to us, like the time in the F.O.S. That was indeed Lionel. I think Lionel meant to go to JK and tell him that he knew the secret, but not to blackmail or threaten but to just let him know that he'd use his power and money(wherever this money came from.. thought he was broke after prison) to help protect the secret. Since JK knos that Martha took money from Lionel to help with the election, he took it as "Well Lionel gave the campaign money and thats what kept me up with Lex, he knows the secret and now he's blackmailing me into giving him for money".

Why dont you think Lionel fought back?? He did in Legacy. As soon as JK hit him he fought right back. He didnt this time. He just stayed on the ground. Also when said (somewhere along these lines) "we both know a secret we are both willing to die protecting" Its not like Martha was around and he was faking how he really felt. It was just HIM AND JK.