Lord Luthor....RISE! [Archive] - KryptonSite Message Forums

ferd

12-08-2005, 09:03 PM

I'm all for having a multi-dimensional character, and most of the time I prefer the antagonist, especially one like Lex who I can be sympathetic towards. Like the Romeo and Juliet, where you can almost smell the happily ever after, but then tragedy wins out. Lex's story is indeed a tragedy, and a heartbreaking one IMHO.

I personally just feel that considering all of the pain and hardship he has endured in his life, it was a bit cliche' to make the straw that broke the camel's back something as obvious of losing your love (especially a realtionship more than likely is more rooted in a desire to "win" rather than true, deep love.) The fact that her death was in childbirth, and he tries to make a deal to save her, and then chooses 'the dark path' is what makes it a rip off. I really don't think it's just a coincidence considering Smallville has done many homages to Star Wars, and ROTS was a major hit this year.

I just wish they would have done a little more justice to the storyline of one of their best characters, whose transistion to an inevitable destiny of evil we've been waiting for for years.

I personally was hoping for more. Like I said, they've slowly given us hints as to why he will be evil, a pile of legitimate reasons why a normal person would crack, I think the Lana/Love button was just too obvious a choice, and one I think is weak to say the least.

The fact that the show has turned into "Everybody loves Lana" is just a whole other subject.

But, at the end of the day, I'm excited to see where a bad Lex will take us.

MarkAllan22

12-08-2005, 09:05 PM

IMO, I took it as Lex chose the 'evil' path because he would be more happy. He knows if he gave that up, Lana might die, and then he would be alone again. But, the money and the power will always be there.

MANOFSTEELKALEL

12-08-2005, 10:10 PM

I think you've missed the point of that part of the episode. Lana dieing wasnt necessarily ensured of happening if Lex led a good life, it was just a dream.

The point of that dream was to illustrate that while Lex can choose a life of love and fulfillment, he'd have to give up the great power and control he exhibits now by being the way he is, and he's unwilling to do that because he doesnt want to feel helpless or vulnerable about anything. He needs to be in control above all else, hence his mothers sorrowful look over his shoulder at the end. Lex has always had a lust for power and control, and this just showed he's not going to give that up, even if it means he's happy in exchange for it.

In the comics, a big part of the reason that Lex hates Superman is because he's more powerful than Lex is, and even though Supes uses that power for good, Lex just cant have anyone having more power than he does because it means he has no control over that individual. Any power Lex cant control, he wants to destroy.

Mydhrin

12-08-2005, 10:18 PM

You see, it isnt precisely because Lana died that Lex chose the dark side path, but because of the sum of different events.

Thats exactly what the shout to his mother was at the end. Every one he loves has died and Lex cant take that anymore, even though he knows that love might bring him the most joyful moments of his life. You see love is also related to pain for exactly the reason they showed. The example of losing his wife at child birth was to prove this point. Love brings you joy, but also pain in the end. Because Lex cant endure pain, he chose the easiest way to prevent it or stop it. Like he said at the end, power and money, once you have those, u can have everything. This is true, but it is also the easy way, the luxury way. It is a sign of weakness of spirit. Vilains tend to always bury something they cant control with something more powerful. Thats a little what makes Lex Luthor, he buries everything he cant handle under his mantle of money and power...

ferd

12-08-2005, 10:20 PM

IMHO I believe Lex chooses a path questing power thinking that with enough power and money he can keep bad things from happening to him. Like Anakin in Star Wars, he inevitably believes his path is the right one, the one that will lead to a life of happiness, and no more sorrow. However, the tragic turn is that in seeking such power and control of things that cannot be controled, you are opening yourself up for more sadness and disappointment that you could imagine. In questing power you will always find yourself feeling empty. It's never enough. People around you will always die. Bad things will always happen. You cannot prevent it, but, as Lillian was hoping to show him, you can enjoy life, and the good moments while you have them. Don't be afraid to live, and be loved. Don't fear the bad things, or else you will never truly live because you will always be looking over your shoulder for the doom to come. :\

It is extrememly tragic. Lex feels he can have a life with Lana in the future. He truly believes that in being powerful he can cheat death, but in his clouded vision he fails to see that in being the man who so greedily desires power and wealth is the very thing that will keep them seperated forever.

In trying to do good, and make the right choice, he is really doing wrong. Just like Anakin. He is the very reason for his own downfall.

Laguine

12-08-2005, 10:22 PM

Originally posted by clanais4ever
just a little like star wars, ya think? turns evil to save his wife, who dies in childbirth... hmmmm

You are so right... Too easy. I can't believe that they think that they can stole stories without no one can see. (Cause a lot of Smallville's stories are Deja Vu!

tejdog1

12-08-2005, 10:24 PM

It was a "Force dream", and Lord Luthor will soon be wearing an artifical left arm. If Clark and Lex ever end up next to a volcano, watch out!

"You were my brother, I LOVED YOU! YOU WERE THE CHOSEN ONE!" Clark screamed, anguished.

"I HATE YOU!" Lex screamed, flames dancing across his back.

At least Lex is already bald.

vikingjedi

12-08-2005, 10:26 PM

Its the excuse he was looking for to justify his actions. Now that he has convinced himself that what he is doing is "right" the inner conflict is gone.

In other words this episode was HUGE because we saw the true moment Lex turned to the darkside. Interestingly it was on Christmas.

sstray72

12-08-2005, 10:29 PM

Originally posted by ferd
IMHO I believe Lex chooses a path questing power thinking that with enough power and money he can keep bad things from happening to him. Like Anakin in Star Wars, he inevitably believes his path is the right one, the one that will lead to a life of happiness, and no more sorrow. However, the tragic turn is that in seeking such power and control of things that cannot be controled, you are opening yourself up for more sadness and disappointment that you could imagine. In questing power you will always find yourself feeling empty. It's never enough. People around you will always die. Bad things will always happen. You cannot prevent it, but, as Lillian was hoping to show him, you can enjoy life, and the good moments while you have them. Don't be afraid to live, and be loved. Don't fear the bad things, or else you will never truly live because you will always be looking over your shoulder for the doom to come. :\

It is extrememly tragic. Lex feels he can have a life with Lana in the future. He truly believes that in being powerful he can cheat death, but in his clouded vision he fails to see that in being the man who so greedily desires power and wealth is the very thing that will keep them seperated forever.

In trying to do good, and make the right choice, he is really doing wrong. Just like Anakin. He is the very reason for his own downfall.

I agree with you 100%. I know that it is a sum of the parts that cause Lex to arrive at his choice, but I DON'T like that it was because of the vision of Lana's death that ended breaking the camel's back. It seemed very "dammed if you do, dammed if you don't" to me. He sounded like he was angry that he was still alive. I would rather him have come to this decision because of something that Clark (you know, the guy that this show is ABOUT) did, then a death of his "love" that I saw coming before the show even started. Whatever.

Fresh "Everybody Loves Lana," Thursday nights 9PM EST on the WB.

MANOFSTEELKALEL

12-08-2005, 10:30 PM

Originally posted by ferd
IMHO I believe Lex chooses a path questing power thinking that with enough power and money he can keep bad things from happening to him. Like Anakin in Star Wars, he inevitably believes his path is the right one, the one that will lead to a life of happiness, and no more sorrow. However, the tragic turn is that in seeking such power and control of things that cannot be controled, you are opening yourself up for more sadness and disappointment that you could imagine. In questing power you will always find yourself feeling empty. It's never enough. People around you will always die. Bad things will always happen. You cannot prevent it, but, as Lillian was hoping to show him, you can enjoy life, and the good moments while you have them. Don't be afraid to live, and be loved. Don't fear the bad things, or else you will never truly live because you will always be looking over your shoulder for the doom to come. :\

It is extrememly tragic. Lex feels he can have a life with Lana in the future. He truly believes that in being powerful he can cheat death, but in his clouded vision he fails to see that in being the man who so greedily desires power and wealth is the very thing that will keep them seperated forever.

In trying to do good, and make the right choice, he is really doing wrong. Just like Anakin. He is the very reason for his own downfall.

I agree, thats totally how Lex has been in the comics for a while and I thought they nailed that aspect tonight

Lana's death tonight wasnt a literal one, it was just a metaphor for the control he'd have to sacrifice to really enjoy al ife of love and happiness

Vatusia

12-08-2005, 10:31 PM

I gave my opinion on this topic in the Review thread, so I will only say - I really wanted to see the guy in the cowl walk through the scene in this ep the way he did in 'Shattered'. Palpatine, maybe, just passing through.... :lol:

Summers

12-08-2005, 10:31 PM

Actually I thought since he will have the money and power he will be able to help stop death. He did say he wanted it all. Lex in the dream didn't have the finanical needs or power to ensure Lana the best medical attention. This way he can get his cake and eat it too.

Lexana will still be here rest of the season.

sstray72

12-08-2005, 10:33 PM

Originally posted by tejdog1
It was a "Force dream", and Lord Luthor will soon be wearing an artifical left arm. If Clark and Lex ever end up next to a volcano, watch out!

"You were my brother, I LOVED YOU! YOU WERE THE CHOSEN ONE!" Clark screamed, anguished.

"I HATE YOU!" Lex screamed, flames dancing across his back.

At least Lex is already bald.

:rotfl: :rotfl:

Yoda: The prophecy read wrong, perhaps it was. Superman, Lana will be. The star of the show, Clark is not.

ferd

12-08-2005, 10:35 PM

Originally posted by Summers
Actually I thought since he will have the money and power he will be able to help stop death.

Are you saying that rich people don't die? :confused:

That type of thinking is the very thing that will lead to his own tragic demise as a human. :(

Love is living everyday to the fullest with the one you love for you don't know which day will be the last.

To quote Anakin's mother "You can't stop death, no more than you can stop the suns from setting."

Lillian was trying to teach Lex that lesson. Sadly, he thinks he knows a better way. :\

sstray72

12-08-2005, 10:38 PM

Just like money won't stop Lionel's death.

(sorry I can't resist...) http://darthno.ytmnd.com/
:p

Vatusia

12-08-2005, 10:41 PM

You people make me to laugh. :lol:

tejdog1

12-08-2005, 10:42 PM

Originally posted by sstray72
:rotfl: :rotfl:

Yoda: The prophecy read wrong, perhaps it was. Superman, Lana will be. The star of the show, Clark is not.

Yoda: Another hope, there is. In Chloe, there is potential. Trained, she must be. Hope for young Kent, there is.

ferd

12-08-2005, 10:48 PM

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

**dies laughing**

Summers

12-08-2005, 11:08 PM

Originally posted by ferd
Are you saying that rich people don't die? :confused:

That type of thinking is the very thing that will lead to his own tragic demise as a human. :(

Love is living everyday to the fullest with the one you love for you don't know which day will be the last.

To quote Anakin's mother "You can't stop death, no more than you can stop the suns from setting."

Lillian was trying to teach Lex that lesson. Sadly, he thinks he knows a better way. :\

Uh, no :lol:.

Not all. Lex wasn't able to save Lana in his dream because of his economic status. If he was rich and powerful Lana would have gotten a better probablity of living. That's why he wants more power and money to stop it. Of course he can't, but doesn't mean he will not.

Lex will continue to go after Lana. Lex does love her, and ensuring his economic and political status will give her a better chance of living with the best medical attention.

Just makes him more Anakin than we thought. I my goodness can they please stop copying other storylines from SW. I know AlMiles is paralleling Lex and Anakin on purpose (they have stated this), but this is just getting kinda annoying now.

sstray72

12-08-2005, 11:25 PM

Lionel: Son, I can feel your anger! It gives you focus, it makes you STRONGER!!

Yeah, if Lex had Lana AND money & power, he could've saved Lana. Why make one choice when you can have BOTH.

Money power & respect
It's what you need in life
Money power & respect
You'll be eatin right
Money power & respect
Help you sleep at night
You'll see the light
It's the key to life
Money power & respect
Money power & respect
Money power & respect

tejdog1

12-09-2005, 12:06 AM

Wait...so who is Luke in this little SW thing we got going on? ;)

Shiver

12-09-2005, 12:27 AM

>> would rather him have come to this decision because of something that Clark (you know, the guy that this show is ABOUT) did, then a death of his "love" that I saw coming before the show even started. Whatever.<<

I think that's still coming. "Lexmas" may have signaled Lex's turn towards evil, but it doesn't explain his pathological hate for Superman. Right now he's on a path to turn out like his father - a ruthless businessman. It's Clark's actions that will cement his future as a *supervillain.*

BrokenHero

12-09-2005, 01:37 AM

IMO Lex's choice to turn to the "dark side" was the culmination of 3 things:
1) The seemingly real possibility of the dream coming true and him being caused the pain of losing Lana. Either Lex wants to avoid being with Lana altogether for fear of losing her or he wants to be with her but only with enough power to protect her.
2) The dream representing all the power he would be losing and the generally helpless position he would be putting himself in if he lost his money and power.
3) Him losing everyone he loves and wanting to detach himself from all loving relationships to avoid being hurt.

All in all, it comes dangerously close to being like Star Wars, but I think its nuanced enough, and it fits with the character enough, that it's sufficiently original, and certainly enjoyable.

Small2

12-09-2005, 02:22 AM

Brokenhero
"Lana's death tonight wasnt a literal one, it was just a metaphor for the control he'd have to sacrifice to really enjoy a life of love and happiness"

It's also a good counterpoint to Martha Kent being very willing to give up her life, if Jor-El was going to take it. Both her and Jonathan are not going to change who they are even if it means having to die earlier than normal.

Tragically for Lex, his childhood pain of losing both his brother and mother are too much for him.

Magus

12-09-2005, 06:07 AM

this sounds interesting. can't wait to see the episode today. although my mom forgot the beginning. my recording starts with a commercial break and then clark is talking to santa. can someone tell me what happened?

Vatusia

12-09-2005, 08:13 AM

Lex is talking to some hood about digging up dirt on Jonathan Kent, and Lex is hesitating a bit. He walks out into the street and gets mugged/shot, then is rushed to the hospital. While Lex is lying in the street, before the ambulance arrives, he has a vision in which he wakes up to find Lana in bed next to him. Little Alex Luthor comes running in and throws himself on the bed between them, demanding breakfast. Lana gets up and we see that she is preggo. Everyone is very smiley. Lex's mother appears over his shoulder and tells him that this is his future if he makes the right choices.

PETER WEST

12-09-2005, 08:17 AM

Originally posted by tejdog1
Wait...so who is Luke in this little SW thing we got going on? ;)

Since both Luke & Clark are farmboys who grow up to be Great Heroes.

Clark is Young Skywalker .

luuke

12-09-2005, 08:30 AM

what I find interessting is that maybe Bo won´t die because of Jor El but much more because of the deal Lex closed with the black dude... and now imagine Jor El`s Wheel of Fortune chooses Lana and she dies even though Lex chose this path to be capable to help her... I mean I know how unlikely it is, but that would be really impressive and huge..

Dannyblue1

12-09-2005, 08:33 AM

This episode drew a distinct parallel between Lionel and Lex in a similar situation.

On the one hand, you have Lionel, whose son has been shot. Now, all Lionel has to do is snap his fingers, and Lex is flown by helicopter to one of the world's best medical facilities, where he is treated by the best doctors in the field (who dropped everything because the rich and powerful Lionel Luthor called) and, thanks to state-of-the-art procedures, has an almost mirculous recovery from his injuries. And this is all because Lionel Luthor's money and power give him access to things most people don't have.

On the other hand, you have Lex, whose wife is dying due to complications during childbirth. And there's nothing he can do because he no longer has that kind of power. He can't call in specialists. Can't have her air-lifted to a better hospital. All he can do is pace in the hallway and hope for the best. Which, as we see, he doesn't get.

In a similar situation, which position would you rather be in?

Stephen Robinson

12-09-2005, 09:30 AM

Dannyblue 1 refers to Lionel as "rich and powerful." Since when? Did we suddenly flash back to the third season? Just because he started wearing suits again shouldn't change the fact that Lex took all his money and now runs LuthorCorp himself. Oh well.

That aside, I really liked Lexmas because Lillian gave Lex a real moral choice. It wasn't a Christmas Carol cop-out: "Be good and be happy. Be evil and be miserable." Who would choose the latter?

A good life is about walking a certain path -- about sacrifice. Lex has always thought the "good life" would be all puppies and hugs, but no, it's also seeing your wife die far too young. You can't have it all. That's not possible.

Seven years with Lana and a future with his children and -- most importantly -- a life he can respect are far better than what he's pursuing. He's doing the same thing Lionel did -- rolling the dice with fate.

Dannyblue1

12-09-2005, 09:41 AM

Originally posted by Stephen Robinson
Dannyblue 1 refers to Lionel as "rich and powerful." Since when? Did we suddenly flash back to the third season? Just because he started wearing suits again shouldn't change the fact that Lex took all his money and now runs LuthorCorp himself. Oh well.

Lionel might not be in charge, but he still has access to the power necessary to get Lex the best medical care possible. No one said to him, "Well, Luthor Sr., you no longer run LuthorCorp, so you can't call in the best specialists and have helicopters at your beck and call." He obviously did.

livn_life

12-09-2005, 10:11 AM

Originally posted by Small2
Brokenhero
"Lana's death tonight wasnt a literal one, it was just a metaphor for the control he'd have to sacrifice to really enjoy a life of love and happiness"

Excellent take on Lex and his psyche. I like the metaphor illustration. You are so right!

boywithbluehanger

12-09-2005, 11:49 AM

I believe that the major issue Lex's mother was trying to convey was that in order for Lex to become trully happy, he would have to leave his disruptive and coniving ways behind him. Lex was misguided by his father in the dream when he chose his views over his mother's (as we see at his last scene) Lex wasnt able to realize that even without Lana in his life he would have done something great, he would have become an honorable man and have the right morals to raise a loving family. Also he would have enough courage and charisma even to find someone else to love.....but with that said, LEX IS FINALLY HERE!!!!

Aloof

12-09-2005, 12:23 PM

What I *REALLY* want to happen is for Lex to turn Lana evil. Now that would be a hit! :D

Summers

12-09-2005, 01:15 PM

Originally posted by PETER WEST
Since both Luke & Clark are farmboys who grow up to be Great Heroes.

Clark is Young Skywalker .

Clark wishes he is great as Luke, but sorry I'm not seeing a solid parallel since their actions are very different.

Clark and Lex all season are more Anakin Skywalker to me than anything. SV Clark isn't going to be just like the Superman we all know. Since AlMiles altered Clark in their version their "Superman" is going to be entirely different.

Originally posted by Aloof
What I *REALLY* want to happen is for Lex to turn Lana evil. Now that would be a hit! :D

You might get your wish ;).

Aloof

12-09-2005, 01:17 PM

Really? I wonder..... ;)

Small2

12-09-2005, 01:32 PM

"for Lex to turn Lana evil"

Taking the position that AlMiles use all the classic storylines. Is there another storyline, where two powerful men are in love with the same heroine and it doesn't end tragically for all three? We know that neither Clark nor Lex ends up with Lana.

tejdog1

12-09-2005, 02:39 PM

She most likely ends up like Palpatine - not the in power part - but she'll be disfigured and crippled. Maybe something Lex does, and when her beauty is gone - so too will Lex. I can't imagine Lex really loves the Pink One.

lj1234

12-09-2005, 02:52 PM

Regarding the Star Wars parallells... it's a bit of a stretch for justification, but a lot of "real world" pop culture stuff exists in the Smallville universe...maybe Lex saw Episode III (surely he was invited to the premiere) and still had pieces of Anakin's plight floating around in his subconcious for dream fodder? :)

ferd

12-10-2005, 10:01 AM

I Posted this in another thread when someone failed to get the obvious similarities between Lex Luthor and Anakin Skywalker. Figured here was a good place to put it as well. I was taught to back up my thoughts with quotes, so here they are:

Direct quote from ROTS (Anakin to Sidious) "I will do whatever you ask. Just help me save Padme's life. I can't live without her."

Anakin's only motivation in following Sidious is to gain the power that Sidious told him about--the power to cheat death, which is exactly what Anakin seeks to do. As soon as he is in the suit, his first questions are "Where is Padme? Is she safe? Is she alright?" to which he finds out how far the dark side has made him fall. Thus the heartfelt "Nooooo."

If he truly seeked to conquer the universe as you claim, did you ever ask yourself why in seventeen years why Anakin/Darth Vader did not overthrow the Emperor? The truth is without Padme, he has lost his will, and lives out his days feeding off of his hate, his sadness, his pain-HIS HATE FOR HIMSELF--basically allowing himself to be Sidious' whipping boy until Luke helps him find redemption at the end of the Saga.

Now--in regards to the parallel in Smallville:

Direct quote from "Lexmas" (Lionel to Lex) "I warned you, but you chose to give up your family and when you made that decsion, you gave up the money and power that would've enabled you to save your wife."

So, at the end of the episode Lex comes to this conclusion:

(Direct quote from Lex in "Lexmas" )

"Much like Ebenezer Scrooge, I realize, that what I want more than anything is to live 'Happily Ever After'. And you know what the secret to living 'Happily Ever After is? Power. Money and Power. See once you have those two things you can secure everything else, and keep it that way."

Lex's only motivation in "choosing the dark path" (i.e. going after Jonathan Kent) is to secure the money and power he believes will secure his 'Happily Ever After' with Lana.

The sad reality that neither Lex nor Anakin realized was that in following the path they truly believed would save their beloved, inevitably is the very roadblock that will keep them apart forever.

It is *so* not about World or Universe Domination. It is about love, the fear we have of losing it and the misguided things we do to secure it.