Dollhouse #1.6 "Man On the Street"

[CallMeClark]

WOW!

Talk about the best episode thus far!

I LOVED this episode. So I knew that something was up with the neighbor. But then they through me for a loop when Adelle said that she was a citizen and had to be taken care of. I totally thought she was going to die! That was a great twist.

My only question is, was Echo's file really altered? Or did Adelle do that so that he would back off? Or is someone in the Dollhouse really working on the inside?

Great fight scene with Echo and Ballard.

Also, Sierra and Victor are adorable! I love those two together.

And Joss' humor really shined through with the documentary scenes. :lol: Those people were hilarious.

This episode was amazingly good television.

[Superboy-Prime]

everyones watching bsg

[darkphoenix21]

Dollhouse finally began tonight. As soon as the episode started I knew Mellie would turn out to be one of the dolls. And finally we see Echo kick some butt. I love were they're taking the series. Again this week's episode finally started the "real" Dollhouse.

[AngelaV]

That was FREAKING awesome! I can't believe Fox played around with the first 5 episodes. They really don't have a clue. And I'm hoping that this show doesn't die because of their stupid intervention.

[dru-zod2501]

It's nice that the neighbor girl didn't die, but damn, who can be trusted anymore?

My big question:
If the boss lady was the one who set up Echo to meet FBI guy, did she program the message in her as well? From my perspective it seems like the whole point of the confrontation was not to dissuade FBI guy from finding the Dollhouse(s) but fire him up to dig deeper. So why is it that boss lady is urging him with one hand and obstructing him with another? Or did I just miss the whole point of that?

I still don't know their names yet

[devilneedsaride]

My only question is, was Echo's file really altered? Or did Adelle do that so that he would back off? Or is someone in the Dollhouse really working on the inside?


I'm curious about this too. I could see it being some intricate plot by DeWitt, but maybe Topher's assistant is part of a resistance or something.

I thought the really powerful part of this episode was the end with the internet mogul guy and "Rebecca". That scene was actually really moving, and it makes you think. What the Dollhouse does is wrong, because it requires wiping people of their personalities, but you can't help but feel like that situation is somehow more okay than the rest. Like it's beautiful, like that one girl on the video said. And Echo seemed to really want to finish that engagement of her own will, so it raises some moral questions. I still think there's no way to make what the Dollhouse does right, but it's something to ponder.

As a side note, HOW did they not see the handler abuse issue coming? They deal with some of the worst faces of humanity, are they really not cynical enough to have something in place to prevent that? Poor Sierra :(

[CallMeClark]

everyones watching bsg
Not me. Dollhouse came first. I DVRed BSG. :)

Now that I think about it I think DeWitt was not the one to put the glitch in Echo. It makes more sense that they have an inside man.

[lAfrik]

Alpha?

[Hopefulsuicide]

My. God.

I still have tears streaming down my face. I was utterly convinced that Millie was going to be raped to death. It was a brutally constructed scene. The music in Dollhouse is really starting to work for me, as it really enhanced moments of the episode.

I knew that the actress playing Millie had originally signed on to be 'November' but the episode was written so convincingly that i really thought they had thrown that out of the window.

I really think the message programmed in Echo has something to do with Alpha. Perhaps someone is working for him. Could Boyd have anything to do with it? He used to be a cop, he came into the Dollhouse just after Alpha broke loose, and he was the one who distracted Topher so that the imprint could be changed. Or did Alpha do it remotely, and Boyd just happened to give him the opportunity... hmmm.

The story with the man and the house was really sweet, but Ballard was right. If his fantasy was really as innocent and pure as he said, then he would just do the whole house thing and not sleep with her. Did he actually have his wife's brain taken to the Dollhouse and duplicated? I wonder what his wife would think of that...

I'm glad Victor and Sierra are friends again... it warms my heart :lol:

So much happened in this episode that i'm finding it hard to order my thoughts. Voice activation of sleeper agents? ability to program dolls with a 'message' for someone? I want to see the Attic! Mille and Ballard is sweet, but he's gonna be so crushed when he finds out that she's a doll. It means he's been sleeping with someone who didn't 'reaaaally' give their consent... god it's so confusing morally where you draw the line between rape and consensual sex in this show...

I'd give the episode a 9/10, only because i save my 10's for the truly unforgettable stuff, and although i really enjoyed this episode, it wasn't worthy of that.

I just pray and pray that they will allow us another season. You can really feel the direction of the show every episode... and a second season would move into phenomenally complicated storyline (as if it isn't complicated enough already!)

----- Added 6 Minutes later -----

Just wanted to add this, from whedonesque : What the papers say about Dollhouse episode 6. iFMagazine.com says it was "just as good as the best of any Buffy or Angel episodes". Ken Tucker at EW.com goes with "I know I'm along for the rest of the ride". The A.V. Club gives "Man on the Street" an 'A', adding"[it] was Whedon on his game". The Hitfix recap ends with "Whedon, you actually sucked me in again. Well played, sir. Well played". And finally, TVGuide.com says the episode "delivered on story, twists and action"

[weemanwise]

Superb episode, It is for sure a turning point for the show. This episode has convinced me even more that I should keep watching. I just wish iTunes would hurry up and list it for sale so I can put it on my iPod.

[devilneedsaride]

You know what I'm suddenly wondering? What's Ballard gonna think when he listens to his voicemail?

[Hopefulsuicide]

VERY good point! :lol:

Though i suppose if they have perfected the technology of wiping peoples brains and programming them new personalities, i'm sure they could erase a persons voice mail.

[devilneedsaride]

VERY good point! :lol:

Though i suppose if they have perfected the technology of wiping peoples brains and programming them new personalities, i'm sure they could erase a persons voice mail.

True, but since it's an old school voice mail system it's not like they can just hack into some database and erase it remotely. It's on a tape and everything. Can they really bank on being able to break into his apartment and covertly erase that thing before he notices the blinking light?

Okay I'm probably splitting hairs, but I'm really curious now.

[Hopefulsuicide]

hmm

is it possible that there is some kind of technology that makes it so that DeWitt's voice can only be heard by a doll?

tho i suppose the truth is, it doesn't really matter if he hears it... whats he going to figure out based on some strange women leaving a message about the colour of flowers? :lol:

[Shadowlord367]

Perhaps that voicemail will be his next lead.

Question: Is this a good episode just because its purely well written, acted, and produced? Or is it good just because of a "wow" factor because it pulls the cloak off of so many important facts? Food for thought.

[Hopefulsuicide]

It had great characterisation and advanced relationships
It had great acting, writing and directing
It dealt with adult themes in a tasteful and yet unnerving way
It asked questions as well as answering some old ones
It held onto consistency from other episodes
It was unpredictable
It made me cry
It had brutal and well choreographed fights, especially Millie's attack
It had a great soundtrack
It had an underlying 'Doll' plot that was interesting and sympathetic

I could go on and on :lol:

[KryptonSite]

This is a much better episode, almost making the previous episodes worth it. "Almost" in that I still pretty much hated them.

The story seems to go somewhere and I really liked the "man on the street" video interviews. I also liked that the "client" in this case - Patton Oswalt's character - was not just someone looking for a whore or something; he had an emotional reason for calling in a "doll."

The Ballard storyline is still by far my favorite part of the show and I am glad he was center stage in this episode. I also really like Millie.

It's still unfortunate we had to go through some bad episodes in order to get to something good. I hope it'll only get better.

[CallMeClark]

Yeah... I think out of the episodes thus far we've had maybe 2 or 3 just okay ones. But you will have that with a first season run. Shows usually don't get perfected until later on.

[Yoshua]

THIS would have been a better pilot then the one they aired.

This episode finally made me feel like I have a better understanding of how things work. However if people lost interest in the show before this episode? No good.

[bobsuncorp]

You know what I'm suddenly wondering? What's Ballard gonna think when he listens to his voicemail?

I thought the same, but didn't it happen in her apartment, not his? Its still very possible he would hear the message, but not as likely as if it was on his machine.

[Hopefulsuicide]

Hmmm it really isn't clear who's apartment it is, is it? :lol:

oh well, maybe if we have another scene in that living room and they actual say whos apartment it is, we will have an answer.

[Shadowlord367]

This could easily have been the pilot. Why make your pilot a standalone episode. It should be an episode deeper in the show's mythology than any other. We don't need any certain introductions to Echo, shes a new person every week.

In fact, if they were to merge all the actually relevant points from the previous five episodes into one single episode, then we would have two solid episodes. We wouldn't have wasted the money on six episodes.

[devilneedsaride]

I thought the same, but didn't it happen in her apartment, not his? Its still very possible he would hear the message, but not as likely as if it was on his machine.

I thought it was his apartment. It was the same set, anyway, that we saw from the time Victor broke in and begged Ballard to help him. If it was her apartment then it's all a moot point, I guess.

Although, her naive doting neighbor imprint might run that tape again because she sees the flashing light and then go assassin. That would be interesting.

[Vergon6]

It was Agent Ballard's apartment. His voice was on the answering machine before DeWitt recorded her message.

----- Added 6 Minutes later -----

I thought this was an excellent episode, the best one yet. It felt truly like a real show if that makes any sense. Things didn't seem forced. Just enough intrigue for the upcoming episodes.

I was a bit surprised by Millie turning out to be an active, although I don't think I ever ruled it out. One thing that had crossed my mind before was that Agent Ballard somehow was an active, that it was a Blade Runner type scenario (one version of Blade Runner implied that Deckard (Harrison Ford) was in fact a replicant himself).

Is DeWitt somehow the 'inside man' helping Ballard?

Before I thought Victor was just constantly reverting back to an old imprint because of some flaw, but perhaps who ever is responsible for this happening is also the person who sent the message to Ballard through Echo.

[Xanderman]

10/10. (No 1-10 poll for this ep? Would have been nice...)

Great episode, best of the series so far. The rumors about ep#6 were true. Apparently this ep marks a permanent change into a strictly serialized format, although to me it was always serialized--every episode advanced the main stories/arcs/mythology. There were never true standalones in this series. I personally saw nothing wrong with the format.

Notes:

- It's a shame William Boone is dead... Without him, who will uncover what the Taelons are REALLY up to? lol... On Earth: Final Conflict he was a protector for the Taelons, and in this show he was a protector for another alien--Sierra. heh j/k

- I joked before that Mellie was probably a doll, mostly because of how blatantly overly pathetic and sweet she was, and also because she was in Ballard's life. I'm sure I wasn't alone in thinking she was too "odd" to be true. But I think the "doll" thing goes even deeper. It's possible people working for the Dollhouse, even Boss Dewitt herself, are dolls. And I think there's a very good possibility that Agent Ballard is a doll--his fighting skills, his passion for the Dollhouse, his strange attraction to Caroline/Echo and saying that he wouldn't hurt her--all likely programmed into him. By who? Why, by Alpha of course. Ballard is Alpha's own personal toy. Alpha's fighting fire with fire, or dolls with dolls. There's a reason why "Paul" rhymes with "doll"...lol. The other possibility, is that Doll Ballard is Dewitt's creation, or someone else part of the Dollhouse org., and is being used to "smoke out" the traitors on the inside--and he has already been contacted by one of them, so looks like the plan is working. lol A third possibility is that Doll Ballard is simply part of a larger experiment run by the Dollhouse org., to see how far one of their creations will go to fight for and defend beliefs and an identity which they put into him. So basically, Ballard = Nowhere Man. If the Dollhouse's ultimate goal is world domination (which can be accomplished by mind wiping/imprinting high ranking officials in government, corporations, etc around the world), then "real world"/complex experiments like this would be necessary.

- Echo was probably made "special" before becoming a doll. Either that, or whoever's on the inside is making sure Echo's imprints (and erasures) are different/special. She may have been "planted" into the dollhouse on purpose, to take it down or to uncover their hidden agenda--or perhaps it's connected to a "powerplay", an internal struggle for control of the dollhouse or entire organization by lower ranking members or subordinates.

- As for who the person on the inside Echo mentioned is, my guess is also Topher's assistant as devilneedsaride said. But dru-zod's (and Vergon's) theory that it could be Dewitt is an interesting one. However the final scene between Echo and Dewitt seems to cast doubt on that theory, as Echo seemed to say "It isn't finished" in a way targeted at an enemy or a nemesis, not a friend/ally. Like "This isn't finished yet, b****. Not by a longshot." lol I think it's pretty clear by now that Echo's mind-wiped state "dumb" act is just that, an act--she remembers everything. Or at least key things relating to her purpose or mission, and perhaps even her true self.


I was a bit surprised by Millie turning out to be an active, although I don't think I ever ruled it out. One thing that had crossed my mind before was that Agent Ballard somehow was an active, that it was a Blade Runner type scenario (one version of Blade Runner implied that Deckard (Harrison Ford) was in fact a replicant himself)I think it's Mellie with an e (everyone keeps writing Millie). I'm 100% with you on Ballard being a doll himself (read above). It's exactly the kind of irony one would come to expect from Whedon--Ballard is searching for dolls, trying to rescue them, when all the while, he's one himself.

[Vergon6]

Ok Mellie then :P. I never said DeWitt was the inside contact, but that it was a possibility. She is a suspect but I'm not about to make grand proclamations because I think it's only possibility not a certainty. Topher's assistant may be the one, but maybe that's who they want you think it is. She isn't the one you would expect...but maybe they want you to think...I expect the unexpected....and then throw you a curve ball. I'm not certain that Joss even had in mind who the plant would be when he wrote this episode.

I'm not sure about the Alpha controlling Ballard thing. It's hard to say at this point.

Again, in terms of my 'theory', I'm not committing to Ballard for sure being a doll. That is just something that crossed my mind. There were points even in the episode where I thought...maybe he is, maybe he isn't. But I guess the whole Blade Runner alternate ending has been in my mind from day one with Dollhouse, because as you said, the irony of him being a doll himself would be too good in some ways.

The 'it's not finished' seems to indicate to me, at least in the context of the episode, that is referring to the mission to be that guy's wife was left unfinished. But it could have a deeper meaning later.

As for Echo remembering everything from the imprints, I seriously doubt that. I get the sense that she is remembering something, but not necessarily anything concrete. Such as an instinct to mistrust Dominic after the incident at the cult compound. The reaction relates to an implicit memory, rather than an explicit memory.

So as I mentioned, what do you guys think is going on with Victor? Who, if anyone, is causing him to revert back into the same imprint?

[devilneedsaride]

- I joked before that Mellie was probably a doll, mostly because of how blatantly overly pathetic and sweet she was, and also because she was in Ballard's life. I'm sure I wasn't alone in thinking she was too "odd" to be true. But I think the "doll" thing goes even deeper. It's possible people working for the Dollhouse, even Boss Dewitt herself, are dolls. And I think there's a very good possibility that Agent Ballard is a doll--his fighting skills, his passion for the Dollhouse, his strange attraction to Caroline/Echo and saying that he wouldn't hurt her--all likely programmed into him. By who? Why, by Alpha of course. Ballard is Alpha's own personal toy. Alpha's fighting fire with fire, or dolls with dolls. There's a reason why "Paul" rhymes with "doll"...lol. The other possibility, is that Doll Ballard is Dewitt's creation, or someone else part of the Dollhouse org., and is being used to "smoke out" the traitors on the inside--and he has already been contacted by one of them, so looks like the plan is working. lol A third possibility is that Doll Ballard is simply part of a larger experiment run by the Dollhouse org., to see how far one of their creations will go to fight for and defend beliefs and an identity which they put into him. So basically, Ballard = Nowhere Man. If the Dollhouse's ultimate goal is world domination (which can be accomplished by mind wiping/imprinting high ranking officials in government, corporations, etc around the world), then "real world"/complex experiments like this would be necessary.


I think that's an interesting thought, but I believe Joss Whedon has explicitly refuted the theory that the people running the Dollhouse could be dolls themselves. Let me find the interview... here it is

On the possibility that dollhouse staffers could actually be dolls themselves: "How many layers of unreality can you have in somebody's identity? . . . We have to pull ourselves back and say, 'If we make this a lie within a lie within a lie within a lie, people are just going to start slapping us.' We're like, 'Now we're not invested in anybody.' So we've talked about [it], but we've been very restrained with the concept, because you have to have some touchstone of reality, even in this world."From http://www.buzzsugar.com/2951070

I don't know if that same thinking would apply to Ballard, but I imagine it might.


As for Echo remembering everything from the imprints, I seriously doubt that. I get the sense that she is remembering something, but not necessarily anything concrete. Such as an instinct to mistrust Dominic after the incident at the cult compound. The reaction relates to an implicit memory, rather than an explicit memory.

So as I mentioned, what do you guys think is going on with Victor? Who, if anyone, is causing him to revert back into the same imprint?

I agree with you about Echo's memory. That was the impression I got as well. I don't think she clearly remembers why she feels certain ways about certain things. I think it's all just lurking in her subconscious somewhere and that's not getting wiped.

I'm slightly confused about what you're talking about when you say Victor is reverting to the same imprint. If you're talking about how he consistently "likes" Sierra, then I got the impression that that was something similar to what's happening with Echo, related to the whole "You can wipe a memory, but can you wipe a soul?" idea that was used to market the series. He likes Sierra, and it's in some part of his brain that they can't get at.

[Vergon6]

No, I'm talking about the persona Victor had every time he visited Agent Ballard. The Victor/Sierra thing is not what I had in mind.

[devilneedsaride]

No, I'm talking about the persona Victor had every time he visited Agent Ballard. The Victor/Sierra thing is not what I had in mind.

Ahh. I thought that was all intentionally done by the Dollhouse as part of the plan to mess with Ballard's head and throw him off the case. Did I miss something?

[Hopefulsuicide]

This could easily have been the pilot. Why make your pilot a standalone episode. It should be an episode deeper in the show's mythology than any other. We don't need any certain introductions to Echo, shes a new person every week.

In fact, if they were to merge all the actually relevant points from the previous five episodes into one single episode, then we would have two solid episodes. We wouldn't have wasted the money on six episodes.

and the answer is ... FOX! And their demented obsession with making it a 'story a week' show instead of a show with a majorly running plot... you can understand why in some ways. shows are more accesible if there aren't mysteries that are hard to keep up with... but IMO dollhouse never had a plot that suited 'episode a week' becaus Echoes engagments themselves are not the strongest point of the show... the Dollhouse and all it's mysteries are.

if you get a chance, read the script of the original pilot. it's a lot less 'episode a week' and would have been brilliant. here's hoping it's a DVD extra! though it couldnt be a replacement pilot because a lot of the stuff in it was used in later episodes.

I thought it was his apartment. It was the same set, anyway, that we saw from the time Victor broke in and begged Ballard to help him. If it was her apartment then it's all a moot point, I guess.

Although, her naive doting neighbor imprint might run that tape again because she sees the flashing light and then go assassin. That would be interesting.

I thought that... what if Mellie hears the recording again? The Dollhouse is surely not that sloppy though... they would have to get it deleted somehow.

It was Agent Ballard's apartment. His voice was on the answering machine before DeWitt recorded her message..

Ha, well spotted... and i call myself a Dollhouse nut... *hangs head in shame*


I thought this was an excellent episode, the best one yet. It felt truly like a real show if that makes any sense. Things didn't seem forced. Just enough intrigue for the upcoming episodes.

I was a bit surprised by Millie turning out to be an active, although I don't think I ever ruled it out. One thing that had crossed my mind before was that Agent Ballard somehow was an active, that it was a Blade Runner type scenario (one version of Blade Runner implied that Deckard (Harrison Ford) was in fact a replicant himself).

Is DeWitt somehow the 'inside man' helping Ballard?

Before I thought Victor was just constantly reverting back to an old imprint because of some flaw, but perhaps who ever is responsible for this happening is also the person who sent the message to Ballard through Echo.

I think that we have unveiled all the Dolls now. One who is an active, and one who is a sleeper agent. I think any more doll surprises would get old. It makes me kind of sad though, because although i was completely sucked in by Mellie's attack scene and really thought she might die, i had been following spoilers for a long while. So i knew about Victor and November and always had the knowledge that they very well could be still dolls.

10/10. (No 1-10 poll for this ep? Would have been nice...)

Great episode, best of the series so far. The rumors about ep#6 were true. Apparently this ep marks a permanent change into a strictly serialized format, although to me it was always serialized--every episode advanced the main stories/arcs/mythology. There were never true standalones in this series. I personally saw nothing wrong with the format.

Notes:

- It's a shame William Boone is dead... Without him, who will uncover what the Taelons are REALLY up to? lol... On Earth: Final Conflict he was a protector for the Taelons, and in this show he was a protector for another alien--Sierra. heh j/k

- I joked before that Mellie was probably a doll, mostly because of how blatantly overly pathetic and sweet she was, and also because she was in Ballard's life. I'm sure I wasn't alone in thinking she was too "odd" to be true. But I think the "doll" thing goes even deeper. It's possible people working for the Dollhouse, even Boss Dewitt herself, are dolls. And I think there's a very good possibility that Agent Ballard is a doll--his fighting skills, his passion for the Dollhouse, his strange attraction to Caroline/Echo and saying that he wouldn't hurt her--all likely programmed into him. By who? Why, by Alpha of course. Ballard is Alpha's own personal toy. Alpha's fighting fire with fire, or dolls with dolls. There's a reason why "Paul" rhymes with "doll"...lol. The other possibility, is that Doll Ballard is Dewitt's creation, or someone else part of the Dollhouse org., and is being used to "smoke out" the traitors on the inside--and he has already been contacted by one of them, so looks like the plan is working. lol A third possibility is that Doll Ballard is simply part of a larger experiment run by the Dollhouse org., to see how far one of their creations will go to fight for and defend beliefs and an identity which they put into him. So basically, Ballard = Nowhere Man. If the Dollhouse's ultimate goal is world domination (which can be accomplished by mind wiping/imprinting high ranking officials in government, corporations, etc around the world), then "real world"/complex experiments like this would be necessary.

- Echo was probably made "special" before becoming a doll. Either that, or whoever's on the inside is making sure Echo's imprints (and erasures) are different/special. She may have been "planted" into the dollhouse on purpose, to take it down or to uncover their hidden agenda--or perhaps it's connected to a "powerplay", an internal struggle for control of the dollhouse or entire organization by lower ranking members or subordinates.

- As for who the person on the inside Echo mentioned is, my guess is also Topher's assistant as devilneedsaride said. But dru-zod's (and Vergon's) theory that it could be Dewitt is an interesting one. However the final scene between Echo and Dewitt seems to cast doubt on that theory, as Echo seemed to say "It isn't finished" in a way targeted at an enemy or a nemesis, not a friend/ally. Like "This isn't finished yet, b****. Not by a longshot." lol I think it's pretty clear by now that Echo's mind-wiped state "dumb" act is just that, an act--she remembers everything. Or at least key things relating to her purpose or mission, and perhaps even her true self.


I think it's Mellie with an e (everyone keeps writing Millie). I'm 100% with you on Ballard being a doll himself (read above). It's exactly the kind of irony one would come to expect from Whedon--Ballard is searching for dolls, trying to rescue them, when all the while, he's one himself.

I don't think that would be very Whedon actually. I mean this probably happened back when Angel revealed himself to be a Vampire. People probably started guessing that Giles was actually a vampire, or Jenny was secretly a vampire or even Cordelia. But of course, they weren't. Jenny turned out to be working with the gypsies who restored his soul. It was a different and much more unique reveal.

Ballard is the one, and only, person in the show who feels like 'one of us'. He is outside the Dollhouse looking in, and that's why we are relating to him anhd rooting for him. The minute you take that one thread of reality out, say by making him a Doll too... you loose any relatability there was.

As i said, i think that two 'doll reveals', both slightly different, is enough. Any more and it will get a bit 'oh, another doll'.

Ok Mellie then :P. I never said DeWitt was the inside contact, but that it was a possibility. She is a suspect but I'm not about to make grand proclamations because I think it's only possibility not a certainty. Topher's assistant may be the one, but maybe that's who they want you think it is. She isn't the one you would expect...but maybe they want you to think...I expect the unexpected....and then throw you a curve ball. I'm not certain that Joss even had in mind who the plant would be when he wrote this episode.

IMO the likeliest person to be the insider working with Alpha is Dr Saunders. It'd explain why she got away alive, if a little scratched up, when Alpha managed to kill everyone else in his way but Echo. And she seems to morally object to the Dollhouse. And all she really does in the Dollhouse is make sure the people stay healthy and safe.


I'm not sure about the Alpha controlling Ballard thing. It's hard to say at this point.

Again, in terms of my 'theory', I'm not committing to Ballard for sure being a doll. That is just something that crossed my mind. There were points even in the episode where I thought...maybe he is, maybe he isn't. But I guess the whole Blade Runner alternate ending has been in my mind from day one with Dollhouse, because as you said, the irony of him being a doll himself would be too good in some ways.

I think that with Alpha and Ballard, the deal is simply what we have seen so far. Alpha knows that Ballard is obsessed with taking down the Dollhouse too, so he is sending him information in order to get his help. Of course, when Ballard finds out Alpha is also a psycho, they will probably stop working together :lol: But for now, it seems that Alpha is running some kind of 'take down the Dollhouses' operation, which is as long term as the 'take down SD6' plans in Alias.


The 'it's not finished' seems to indicate to me, at least in the context of the episode, that is referring to the mission to be that guy's wife was left unfinished. But it could have a deeper meaning later.

As for Echo remembering everything from the imprints, I seriously doubt that. I get the sense that she is remembering something, but not necessarily anything concrete. Such as an instinct to mistrust Dominic after the incident at the cult compound. The reaction relates to an implicit memory, rather than an explicit memory.

So as I mentioned, what do you guys think is going on with Victor? Who, if anyone, is causing him to revert back into the same imprint?

I agree, it seems more a 'niggling' in the back of her brain than actually remembering everything. They all seem to be remembering 'feelings' and stuff, so maybe some really is messing things up on a large scale.

As for Victor, DeWitt ordered him that imprint to through off Ballard. It didn't work, but that was the idea :lol:

I think that's an interesting thought, but I believe Joss Whedon has explicitly refuted the theory that the people running the Dollhouse could be dolls themselves. Let me find the interview... here it is

From http://www.buzzsugar.com/2951070

I don't know if that same thinking would apply to Ballard, but I imagine it might.
.

Yeah i hope so, cause he's right in what he says. It's too many layers of conspiracy otherwise, you have to draw a line.


I agree with you about Echo's memory. That was the impression I got as well. I don't think she clearly remembers why she feels certain ways about certain things. I think it's all just lurking in her subconscious somewhere and that's not getting wiped.

I'm slightly confused about what you're talking about when you say Victor is reverting to the same imprint. If you're talking about how he consistently "likes" Sierra, then I got the impression that that was something similar to what's happening with Echo, related to the whole "You can wipe a memory, but can you wipe a soul?" idea that was used to market the series. He likes Sierra, and it's in some part of his brain that they can't get at.

The weird thing is, it's not like he ever knew her before, so it's not like it's a love that's survived the mind wipe (unless perhaps it will be revealed they did know each other outside the dollhouse, but i doubt it)

It's a love that's formed inside the Dollhouse, in their childlike innocent state. It sort of backs up my belief that love is all pheremones and chemicals. Who we like is not controlled by conscious thought, but by bodies reacting to each other.

No, I'm talking about the persona Victor had every time he visited Agent Ballard. The Victor/Sierra thing is not what I had in mind.

Ahh. I thought that was all intentionally done by the Dollhouse as part of the plan to mess with Ballard's head and throw him off the case. Did I miss something?

Nope, :lol: you were right.

[devilneedsaride]

and the answer is ... FOX! And their demented obsession with making it a 'story a week' show instead of a show with a majorly running plot... you can understand why in some ways. shows are more accesible if there aren't mysteries that are hard to keep up with... but IMO dollhouse never had a plot that suited 'episode a week' becaus Echoes engagments themselves are not the strongest point of the show... the Dollhouse and all it's mysteries are.


Hey, at least it's not as bad as what they did to Firefly, right? Man, I wish Joss would/could find a network that would give him more creative license. The man is a genius. Just let him do his thing and he'll draw in viewers like Nimoy at a Star Trek convention.


IMO the likeliest person to be the insider working with Alpha is Dr Saunders. It'd explain why she got away alive, if a little scratched up, when Alpha managed to kill everyone else in his way but Echo. And she seems to morally object to the Dollhouse. And all she really does in the Dollhouse is make sure the people stay healthy and safe.


I kind of like this theory. She could plausibly have the know-how to sneak things past Topher. At first I was thinking it was Topher's assistant, but she's way too obvious a choice and I don't think Whedon would be that predictable. Just watch as it's Sierra or Angry Blonde Man Whose Name I Can Never Remember or something.



As for Victor, DeWitt ordered him that imprint to through off Ballard. It didn't work, but that was the idea :lol:


You know, this just made me think of something. They can't kill Ballard because it would be way too suspicious to just whack the only FBI assigned to their case, right? Why can't they kidnap him, wipe him, and imprint him with a personality almost entirely his own except that he doesn't give two flying banana cream pies about the Dollhouse? I mean, they could nab him, imprint him, and never hear from him again. That seems way simpler than committing multiple actives and tons of time/resources into throwing him off the old fashioned way.

[Hopefulsuicide]

Hey, at least it's not as bad as what they did to Firefly, right? Man, I wish Joss would/could find a network that would give him more creative license. The man is a genius. Just let him do his thing and he'll draw in viewers like Nimoy at a Star Trek convention.
.

:lol: too true

the only time anyone criticises a Joss show, is when it's being messed with... when it's out of his hands. I swear, the sun shines out of his... you get the meaning :p


I kind of like this theory. She could plausibly have the know-how to sneak things past Topher. At first I was thinking it was Topher's assistant, but she's way too obvious a choice and I don't think Whedon would be that predictable. Just watch as it's Sierra or Angry Blonde Man Whose Name I Can Never Remember or something.
.

Either that, or it's simply Alpha and he's THAT good. :lol:


You know, this just made me think of something. They can't kill Ballard because it would be way too suspicious to just whack the only FBI assigned to their case, right? Why can't they kidnap him, wipe him, and imprint him with a personality almost entirely his own except that he doesn't give two flying banana cream pies about the Dollhouse? I mean, they could nab him, imprint him, and never hear from him again. That seems way simpler than committing multiple actives and tons of time/resources into throwing him off the old fashioned way.

1. Maybe he's not enough of a risk yet to justify bringing him in.
2. The imprints are a bit unpredictable at the moment. From next weeks episode we can see Mellie is starting to remember, Echo, Sierra and Victor are acting in ways dolls shouldn't, remebering more than they should. I'm not sure they trust their own technology right now.
3. Wouldn't it be suspicious to have him suddenly stop caring?
4. They have had Mellie as his next door neighbour for long enough for her to fall in love with him, and thy had Victor close to him as well... There is definitlely something important about Ballard... maybe they are doing some kind of experiement..,

[devilneedsaride]

:lol: too true

the only time anyone criticises a Joss show, is when it's being messed with... when it's out of his hands. I swear, the sun shines out of his... you get the meaning :p


Yup. Remember that god-awful Buffy movie that got destroyed after some directing team got ahold of it? Then Joss gets to do his thing with the TV show and it becomes a 7 season long cult hit with a 5 season long successful spinoff. They rearranged, cancelled, and otherwise mangled Firefly, and once it came out on DVD in the right order it ALSO became a cult hit. Enough so that it got its own movie made. Dear network executives: Learn your lesson already.



1. Maybe he's not enough of a risk yet to justify bringing him in.
2. The imprints are a bit unpredictable at the moment. From next weeks episode we can see Mellie is starting to remember, Echo, Sierra and Victor are acting in ways dolls shouldn't, remebering more than they should. I'm not sure they trust their own technology right now.
3. Wouldn't it be suspicious to have him suddenly stop caring?
4. They have had Mellie as his next door neighbour for long enough for her to fall in love with him, and thy had Victor close to him as well... There is definitlely something important about Ballard... maybe they are doing some kind of experiement..,

1. Well he's a risk enough for Angry Blonde Man to suggest sending out a hit. He's important enough that DeWitt is actually spending a decent amount of her own time managing his case. I imagine he's up there.
2. Fair enough.
3. I don't think so. I mean everyone around him is constantly telling him to let it the frick go. He could explain it away with "Some things are just more important" or something and I bet they wouldn't think twice about it.
4. Now THAT would be an interesting plotline!

[Hopefulsuicide]

Yup. Remember that god-awful Buffy movie that got destroyed after some directing team got ahold of it? Then Joss gets to do his thing with the TV show and it becomes a 7 season long cult hit with a 5 season long successful spinoff. They rearranged, cancelled, and otherwise mangled Firefly, and once it came out on DVD in the right order it ALSO became a cult hit. Enough so that it got its own movie made. Dear network executives: Learn your lesson already.

I know! Does someone have to hit them over the head with something heavy? :lol:




1. Well he's a risk enough for Angry Blonde Man to suggest sending out a hit. He's important enough that DeWitt is actually spending a decent amount of her own time managing his case. I imagine he's up there.
2. Fair enough.
3. I don't think so. I mean everyone around him is constantly telling him to let it the frick go. He could explain it away with "Some things are just more important" or something and I bet they wouldn't think twice about it.
4. Now THAT would be an interesting plotline!

Well in fairness, angry blonde man (dominic) is a bit crap at his job, considering he tried to kill Echo... I'd say that's a hot headed man who's suggestions can't be trusted... he sees anyone as a remote threat and he wants to kill them :lol:

How long has Ballard been on the case? I mean i can't understand why they would have put Mellie with him, for what I'm assuming is a long while (considering she is a sleeper agent who LOVES him, and they seemed to know each other quite well). Why waste her before he was even a threat. They sent in Victor when he started becoming an actual threat... so what is Mellie actually there for? It's very confusing. And i take DeWitt's decision not to remove her as a sign of something more to the story...

[Vergon6]

Ahh. I thought that was all intentionally done by the Dollhouse as part of the plan to mess with Ballard's head and throw him off the case. Did I miss something?
Ah okay. That makes sense. Sort of :p

[ClarkyBoy14]

A very good episode! :)

I'm slightly disappointed that Ballard's neighbour is a sleeper doll, because I was hoping that she would be normal, but I'm glad she's not dead and this story could be interesting too.

I'm glad that they revealed a lot more about the Dollhouse, and someone working to take it down from the inside is interesting too.

All in all, a great episode, I'm excited for the next one, and I hope this isn't the only season.

----- Added 58 Seconds later -----

I thought the really powerful part of this episode was the end with the internet mogul guy and "Rebecca". That scene was actually really moving, and it makes you think. What the Dollhouse does is wrong, because it requires wiping people of their personalities, but you can't help but feel like that situation is somehow more okay than the rest. Like it's beautiful, like that one girl on the video said. And Echo seemed to really want to finish that engagement of her own will, so it raises some moral questions. I still think there's no way to make what the Dollhouse does right, but it's something to ponder.

I think that's the first scene I've ever seen that was sad, touching and disgusting all at the same time. :lol:

[Jaded Wolf]

Like all of Joss Whedon's shows you really have to stick with it to get into the series and Dollhouse is proving the same. I am loving it as each episode goes by. I hate I missed a few episodes but I'll start watching them online soon. Eliza Dushku is hot as always and her diversity of an actress is on display in this show. I hope FOX doesn't screw this up (stupid Firefly killers)!!!

[Pamela]

I watched this episode on Hulu. There are commercials but there are only a few and only for about 30 seconds.

[devilneedsaride]

I know! Does someone have to hit them over the head with something heavy? :lol:

Ooo, pick me! Pick me!



Well in fairness, angry blonde man (dominic) is a bit crap at his job, considering he tried to kill Echo... I'd say that's a hot headed man who's suggestions can't be trusted... he sees anyone as a remote threat and he wants to kill them :lol:

How long has Ballard been on the case? I mean i can't understand why they would have put Mellie with him, for what I'm assuming is a long while (considering she is a sleeper agent who LOVES him, and they seemed to know each other quite well). Why waste her before he was even a threat. They sent in Victor when he started becoming an actual threat... so what is Mellie actually there for? It's very confusing. And i take DeWitt's decision not to remove her as a sign of something more to the story...

Dominic! Hah! It'll be gone in about 10 minutes though. I don't know why, I just can't retain that information. He is pretty terrible, isn't he? Boyd seems to be constantly doing his job for him.

That is a pretty interesting question. Ballard has been on the case for 14 months as of the pilot, and I can imagine the Dollhouse just dropping a sleeper active on him as soon as they heard about an agent being assigned to them, so that's a plausible amount of time for them to have known each other. I guess DeWitt could just be leaving Mellie there because Ballard is a) Not quite fired yet and b) Still pretty interested in the case. You're right, though. What is she doing there at all? So far she's pretty much boinking him and eating Chinese food. Do they just want to have someone in place to kill him quickly if the need arises? In the sort of situation where he might need to be dispatched with immediately, would Mellie even be there? It's not like they need her to watch him. They've got spy cams for that. It's an odd setup, for sure.


Either that, or it's simply Alpha and he's THAT good. :lol:


Oh oh! I have a theory! It's TOTALLY Topher! He could be an undercover anti-Dollhouse agent. Think about it, getting someone into that particular position would give them an incredible amount of power to mess with the inner workings of it all. That, and nobody would ever see it coming. It's just the kind of stunt Joss would pull.

[Hopefulsuicide]

Good points. Though i simply don't think it's Topher. He seems the most comfortable person in the Dollhouse, more concerned with someone trying to steal his job than saving the dolls.

Besides, it definitely looked like it was done behind his back and he didn't know about it.

[Vergon6]

Good points. Though i simply don't think it's Topher. He seems the most comfortable person in the Dollhouse, more concerned with someone trying to steal his job than saving the dolls.

Besides, it definitely looked like it was done behind his back and he didn't know about it.
I agree. Notice how went out of the lab where he was encoding the imprint for a few crucial moments. That's probably when the modifications to the imprint were done.

[Xanderman]

I'm not certain that Joss even had in mind who the plant would be when he wrote this episode.I very much doubt that. I'm sure he had it all worked out beforehand, or at least during the writing of it. And if he says anything otherwise, he's lying. heh

I'm not sure about the Alpha controlling Ballard thing. It's hard to say at this point.Neither am I but I think it's a good possibility. If he's not Alpha's own personal creation, he might be the Dollhouse org's creation, to smoke out the traitors, capture Alpha etc. Alpha and the inside person are in contact with him, so if that's the plan it's already working. Meaning this is why Ballard is still alive, and why they're not just grabbing him and mind wiping him, etc. Especially now that he's out of the FBI (following suit with Terminator's Agent Ellison and X-files' Mulder before him), he's basically a nobody. And nobodies can disappear without being made into martyrs. If they leave him alone, it's because they are using him. And a third possibility I can see, is that he is Nowhere Man (ie. a Dollhouse experiment), as I talked about before.

The 'it's not finished' seems to indicate to me, at least in the context of the episode, that is referring to the mission to be that guy's wife was left unfinished. But it could have a deeper meaning later.It's far more likely the remark was directly connected to the "big events" of the episode, not the temporary mission-of-the-week, in my opinion. It was in reference to the whole Ballard/Mellie/inside man stuff. She was letting Dewitt know that the game isn't done yet.


I think that's an interesting thought, but I believe Joss Whedon has explicitly refuted the theory that the people running the Dollhouse could be dolls themselves. Let me find the interview... here it is

On the possibility that dollhouse staffers could actually be dolls themselves: "How many layers of unreality can you have in somebody's identity? . . . We have to pull ourselves back and say, 'If we make this a lie within a lie within a lie within a lie, people are just going to start slapping us.' We're like, 'Now we're not invested in anybody.' So we've talked about [it], but we've been very restrained with the concept, because you have to have some touchstone of reality, even in this world."

I don't know if that same thinking would apply to Ballard, but I imagine it might.While I prefer to mainly stick with just the show myself to avoid being spoiled, that response didn't exactly explicitly refute or rule out anything either way, right. It was sort of skirting around giving a clear answer, so as to cover himself or not give anything away. So I could see Dewitt being a doll. Better yet, Dominic. Would be sweet if the guy who despises dolls (well Echo anyway) is one himself.

something similar to what's happening with Echo, related to the whole "You can wipe a memory, but can you wipe a soul?" idea that was used to market the series. He likes Sierra, and it's in some part of his brain that they can't get at.Reminds me of Dark City, if you know that film. Would be funny if that's what's going on with this series. The DH powers-that-be (aliens?) are searching for the human soul, so that they may harness it and live forever...lol.

Ballard is the one, and only, person in the show who feels like 'one of us'. He is outside the Dollhouse looking in, and that's why we are relating to him anhd rooting for him. The minute you take that one thread of reality out, say by making him a Doll too... you loose any relatability there was. Depends on how they handle it though. Like if after the "big reveal", they have the character on a mission to recover his true identity/self--sort of like John Doe. And likely what Thomas Veil would have went on to do on Nowhere Man should that series have continued. John Doe didn't know who he was, but we still rooted for him and he was completely relatable. If Ballard becomes lost in the same way, the same would be true for him. Things like Ballard being a dynamite fighter, being obsessed with the Dollhouse, and having a strange attraction to Echo--all scream imprint to me. This and the fact that the Dollhouse people are monitoring him/playing around with him instead of a more simple approach. If you've seen Nowhere Man, you'll see the exact same signs that were there are here as well. The only reason Ballard is getting closer and closer, is because they're letting him. Because that's what he's meant to do. I think it would be a cool surprise if Ballard ends up being the worst villain of them all--maybe even the man in charge of the whole thing, purposely going under the cover of another identity to gain the trust of "the resistance"--just like Arnie's character in Total Recall going after Quato (here Quato=Alpha or the inside man). Sharon Stone can make a guest spot on Dollhouse to say things like: "Sorry, Paul. Your whole life is just a dream." lol Other possible scenes include:

Ballard: "If I'm not me, then who the hell am I?"

Ballard: "I don't remember you. I don't remember us. I don't even remember me."
Echo: "You never loved me, Hauser. You just used me to get inside."
Ballard: "I'm not Hauser anymore. Now I'm Quaid. Douglas Quaid. No wait... Paul Ballard. I always get those two confused."

I think that we have unveiled all the Dolls now.Not by a longshot. lol But seriously I think they're saving the Ballard reveal for later, just like Nowhere Man (experiment route), or Total Recall if they're going that route (infiltration/spy mission). If not this, either way I know something was probably done to Ballard's memories/mind--as he is fixed upon Echo/Caroline beyond normal interest--meaning if not an imprint, it might be memories he has of her buried within he can't reach (possibly wiped)--maybe he and Caroline have a connection in the past (love?), and his memories of her were wiped from him for some reason. But the "soul" doesn't forget, and he is drawn to her...or something sweet like that. lol

IMO the likeliest person to be the insider working with Alpha is Dr Saunders. It'd explain why she got away alive, if a little scratched up, when Alpha managed to kill everyone else in his way but Echo. And she seems to morally object to the Dollhouse. And all she really does in the Dollhouse is make sure the people stay healthy and safe.Definitely possible.

There is definitlely something important about Ballard... maybe they are doing some kind of experiement..
Right, that's what I said. He's Nowhere Man.:cool: heh

[Hopefulsuicide]

I have no idea who nowhere man is... but the is a Joss Whedon show, and i know Joss' style. And i don't feel the ideas you are presenting are his style.

Why would he have Ballard turn out to be a doll? How would that make the show better?

There are already 4 main characters who will somewhere down the line be on a mission to uncover their identity. There are 5 members of Dollhouse staff who will continue exploring the morality of what they are doing. And there is 1, just 1, man on the outside, looking in. This man's story will be the most interesting because it's completely his own... it has a certain amount of freedom. With the dolls, we can pretty much tell what is going to happen. Ballard is unpredictable.

Why even bother having a character like Ballard, just to turn him into a Doll and make EVERYTHING about the Dollhouse? Just makes no sense in terms of good storytelling. Echo is the main character, who is going to be figuring out her identity. Having Ballard do the same would be boring, repetative, and as you keep pointing out, just like other TV shows have done it.

*yawn* no thanks :(

His fixation on Caroline is interesting, and i like the explanation for it given in 'man on the street', it's a good psych thing... but if everything on the show can be put down to mind control, it'll get really dull.

[lAfrik]

The fixation on Caroline is just based on the fact that she's the only one that he knows she's really a doll. Just a face on the whole conspiracy.

[Hopefulsuicide]

The fixation on Caroline is just based on the fact that she's the only one that he knows she's really a doll. Just a face on the whole conspiracy.

Nicely put, ITA :)

[Xanderman]

I have no idea who nowhere man isNowhere Man was a shortlived show in the 90's that dealt with similar ideas/themes. I can't help but see Ballard as the "Nowhere Man" of Dollhouse because of it.
Why would he have Ballard turn out to be a doll? How would that make the show better?In many ways if handled well. Besides, Ballard turning out to be exactly what he appears to be is not a guaranteed formula for a better show either, of course.
Why even bother having a character like Ballard, just to turn him into a Doll and make EVERYTHING about the Dollhouse? Just makes no sense in terms of good storytelling. That's what happened on Nowhere Man and it was great storytelling. A similar thing happened with John Doe on that series, and also John Doe's trusted "best friend" turned out to be something other than he seemed himself, and it was all awesome.
Echo is the main character, who is going to be figuring out her identity. Having Ballard do the same would be boring, repetative, and as you keep pointing out, just like other TV shows have done it. Wouldn't be boring for me. And as for other shows having done similar things, they could throw in their own twists and turns here and there to make it their own. As for it being repetitive, not really as it's different than what's going on with Echo. With Ballard, he would be leading a life on "the outside" that he believes to be real (something we the audience are meant to believe as well). With Echo and other dolls, they live multiple shortlived lives as part of their engagements, something known to the audience. If Ballard isn't a DH or an Alpha creation, either way I strongly suspect he has a direct connection with Echo/Caroline from a shared past together. This would mean he has had memories erased or altered, at the very least. And the whole "soul" thing could come into the play here. Much like "the Strangers" of Dark City were looking in the wrong place (ie. memories).
And there is 1, just 1, man on the outside, looking in. This man's story will be the most interesting because it's completely his own... it has a certain amount of freedom.That's the nice thing about this, they can do everything you're saying with who and what you want him to be. And then later down the road, they can twist it all into one big Nowhere Man reveal. That will make fans like you happy right up till that point at least, and fans like me happy either way since I'm happy with either/or, as long as what they do is entertaining.
With the dolls, we can pretty much tell what is going to happen. Ballard is unpredictable.They can do what I'm saying and still keep things unpredictable. Depends on how they write it.
His fixation on Caroline is interesting, and i like the explanation for it given in 'man on the street', it's a good psych thingWhat was the explanation again? I can't remember. Was it the stuff that rich web freak talked about?


The fixation on Caroline is just based on the fact that she's the only one that he knows she's really a doll. Just a face on the whole conspiracy.Right that's how it appears on the surface (ie. how it's meant to appear). I personally think (and hope) there's more to it than that. We'll see I guess.

[Hopefulsuicide]

I think we will just have to agree to disagree on this one :p

My final word on this: Sometimes what you see is what you get :)

[Xanderman]

My final word on this: Sometimes what you see is what you get :)Perhaps, but remember what Dewitt said..."Nothing is what it appears to be."

[Hopefulsuicide]

:rotfl:

We could do this all day :p